Is God able to provide additional evidence that would convince more people to accept him?

[Mr Cheese]

So when "god" is "materialized", what material does it consist of, and where exactly is this existence manifested?

I think God may be a dairy product.....

perhaps christians are actually saying

"Praise cheesus for he is gouda"

 

[IndieVisible]

Isn't that also what one would expect if "god" were something people made up in their minds?


Why?

We are very finite creatures, GOD is infinite in concept which we can not understand.

But if we can't "even come close" to understanding "god", how in the world could we ever hope to figure out a "path to God"? If you can't even come close to understanding your destination, how would you know when you're there?

I already explained, it's more of a personal experience, you have no further to look then within your own self.

And how is "it's on a personal level" any different than "everyone makes up their own god"?

no difference.

And how do you differentiate between "inspiration" and "man made"?

When I truly feel inspired by God I feel a special high, could be of my own doing, but I doubt it because I can not duplicate it at will.

So if "god" is something that "we have no idea" what it is, how can you ever say whether or not it exists?

God is not about proving it exists or not. As I already said, there is no rational reasons to believe in God. You will never be satisfied with proofs or evidence as they will always be disputable. I can say God exists because of personal experiences and feelings, and you are welcome to question their validity and me. It would not make a difference to me as I do not seek approval or evidence or proofs. It's not about any of that. It's more about feelings not rational thinking

Weird yes, but it is what it is.

 

[Agnostic75]

If a God exists, there is no doubt that he would easily be able to convince more people to accept him.

 

[IndieVisible]

If a God exists, there is no doubt that he would easily be able to convince more people to accept him.

It's not about that at all. see above post

 

[Mr Cheese]

If a God exists, there is no doubt that he would easily be able to convince more people to accept him.

well approx 4 billion are beelievers...

I'd say that's pretty good going

Major Religions Ranked by Size

 

[Jose Fly]

We are very finite creatures, GOD is infinite in concept which we can not understand.

I already explained, it's more of a personal experience, you have no further to look then within your own self.

no difference.

When I truly feel inspired by God I feel a special high, could be of my own doing, but I doubt it because I can not duplicate it at will.

God is not about proving it exists or not. As I already said, there is no rational reasons to believe in God. You will never be satisfied with proofs or evidence as they will always be disputable. I can say God exists because of personal experiences and feelings, and you are welcome to question their validity and me. It would not make a difference to me as I do not seek approval or evidence or proofs. It's not about any of that. It's more about feelings not rational thinking

Weird yes, but it is what it is.

It seems "god" is no different than "totally made up", it has no rational basis, and is indistinguishable from "that which does not exist".

And I guess all I can say is....I agree.

 

[Mr Cheese]

It seems "god" is no different than "totally made up", it has no rational basis, and is indistinguishable from "that which does not exist".

And I guess all I can say is....I agree.

You can conclude that sure

Or you can conclude that God is ineffable

.........

Ineffable: Means, 1. Incapable of being expressed; indescribable or unutterable. See Synonyms; unspeakable. 2. Not to be uttered; taboo: “the ineffable name of God.” (American Heritage Dictionary)….”Moreover it is these who have known him who is, the Father, that is, the Root of the All, the Ineffable One who dwells in the Monad. He dwells alone in silence, and silence is tranquillity since, after all, he was a Monad and no one was before him.” (”A Valentinian Exposition. &#8221


O HOW may I ever express that secret word?
O how can I say He is not like this, and He is like that?
If I say that He is within me, the universe is ashamed:
If I say that He is without me, it is falsehood.
He makes the inner and the outer worlds to be indivisibly one;
The conscious and the unconscious, both are His footstools.
He is neither manifest nor hidden, He is neither revealed nor unrevealed:
There are no words to tell that which He is.

–Kabir

H-I « Prayers and Reflections

 

[Agnostic75]

If a God exists, there is no doubt that he would easily be able to convince more people to accept him.

Well approx 4 billion are believers. I'd say that's pretty good going.

But since I am an agnostic, for purposes of this thread, I was was obviously referring to the God of the Bible. I debate the Bible because there are tens of millions of fundamentalist Christians in the U.S. who try to legislate religion. That is wrong. If Muslims were to become the most numerous group in the U.S., they would try to legislate the Koran, and I would be mostly debating the Koran instead of the Bible.

The fallacy of "argumentum ad populum" says that there is not a necessary
correlation between the truth and how many people believe it.

 

[Mr Cheese]

But since I am an agnostic, for purposes of this thread, I was was obviously referring to the God of the Bible. I debate the Bible because there are tens of millions of fundamentalist Christians in the U.S. who try to legislate religion. That is wrong. If Muslims were to become the most numerous group in the U.S., they would try to legislate the Koran, and I would be mostly debating the Koran instead of the Bible.

The fallacy of "argumentum ad populum" says that there is not a necessary
correlation between the truth and how many people believe it.

Originally Posted by Agnostic75
If a God exists, there is no doubt that he would easily be able to convince more people to accept him.

I see, you say ONE thing, then change it as you go along
ok lets do the math:

Population of USA according to Google Jul 2009 307,006,550

Population of total adults IN USA religious in 2008 228,182,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

The largest religion in the US is Christianity, practiced by the majority of the population (76% in 2008[5]). Roughly 51.3% of Americans are Protestants, 23.9% are Catholics, and 1.7% are Mormons (the name commonly used to refer to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), and 1.6% to various other Christian denominations.[12] Christianity was introduced during the period of European colonization.

Religion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

conclusion: Your idea does not hold water

 

[Agnostic75]

But since I am an agnostic, for purposes of this thread, I was was obviously referring to the God of the Bible. I debate the Bible because there are tens of millions of fundamentalist Christians in the U.S. who try to legislate religion. That is wrong. If Muslims were to become the most numerous group in the U.S., they would try to legislate the Koran, and I would be mostly debating the Koran instead of the Bible.

The fallacy of "argumentum ad populum" says that there is not a necessary
correlation between the truth and how many people believe it.

If a God exists, he would easily be able to convince more people to believe that he exists.

I see, you say ONE thing, then change it as you go along

ok lets do the math:

Population of USA according to Google Jul 2009 307,006,550

Population of total adults IN USA religious in 2008 228,182,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra..._United_States

The largest religion in the US is Christianity, practiced by the majority of the population (76% in 2008[5]). Roughly 51.3% of Americans are Protestants, 23.9% are Catholics, and 1.7% are Mormons (the name commonly used to refer to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), and 1.6% to various other Christian denominations.[12] Christianity was introduced during the period of European colonization.

Religion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Conclusion: Your idea does not hold water.

I do not have any idea whatsoever what you are talking about. I did not change anything. The title of this thread is "Is God able to provide additional evidence that would convince more people to accept him?" The obvious answer is "yes." Surely you believe that whatever God you believe in is able to convince more people to believe that he exists.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You can conclude that sure

Or you can conclude that God is ineffable

If you can apply a label (i.e. "God") to God and make statements about his nature (e.g. "God is ineffable"), then this implies that God is effable to a certain extent.

If God truly is ineffable, then it would mean that any and all statements about God (including the simple statement that God exists) could be dismissed as completely baseless and originating from something other than God.

But since I am an agnostic, for purposes of this thread, I was was obviously referring to the God of the Bible.

:sarcastic

 

[Willamena]

But since I am an agnostic, for purposes of this thread, I was was obviously referring to the God of the Bible.

I agree with 9/10's. Of its own, that makes little sense.

 

[Mr Cheese]

If you can apply a label (i.e. "God") to God and make statements about his nature (e.g. "God is ineffable"), then this implies that God is effable to a certain extent.

If God truly is ineffable, then it would mean that any and all statements about God (including the simple statement that God exists) could be dismissed as completely baseless and originating from something other than God.


:sarcastic

and?

consider the following:

Light and Darkness, life and death, right and left, are brothers of one another. They are inseparable. Because of this neither are the good good, nor evil evil, nor is life life, nor death death. For this reason each one will dissolve into its earliest origin. But those who are exalted above the world are indissoluble, eternal.

Names given to the worldly are very deceptive, for they divert our thoughts from what is correct to what is incorrect. Thus one who hears the word "God" does not perceive what is correct, but perceives what is incorrect. So also with "the Father" and "the Son" and "the Holy Spirit" and "life" and "light" and "resurrection" and "the Church (Ekklesia)" and all the rest - people do not perceive what is correct but they perceive what is incorrect, unless they have come to know what is correct. The names which are heard are in the world [...] deceive. If they were in the Aeon (eternal realm), they would at no time be used as names in the world. Nor were they set among worldly things. They have an end in the Aeon.

One single name is not uttered in the world, the name which the Father gave to the Son; it is the name above all things: the name of the Father. For the Son would not become Father unless he wore the name of the Father. Those who have this name know it, but they do not speak it. But those who do not have it do not know it.

--Gospel of Philip

Philip further goes on to explain, the only way to know something is to become it.

French Orthodox theologian LeLoup states in one of his books:

If I were to say ‘I know God’, I would be a liar. God is beyond comprehension. Better to be silent and live in humility. If I were to say, ‘I do not know God’, I would also be a liar.

— Jean-Yves Leloup

this can be further explained by kabbalists further which I have posted elsewhere..

​

 

[mahmoud mrt]

The point is simple, God is on every human born heart, He put sings everywhere in the universe and human body to His existence,

You want him to put a physical compelling sign that any one cannot disagree upon

If this happens it will be a disaster for mankind, not that they will vanish or all get dead,

The point is that when God put in front of you compelling evidence then simply there will be no reward for good deeds at all, life itself will be meaningless

God wants the person to love Him, to reach to Him, not bow his neck for Him with humiliation, God wants to rank persons, and to humiliate them

Also to explain why it will be a disaster for mankind, simple cause when you see a complying evidence, and then you do crimes, then the punishment torture will surely be eternal, then most of mankind including muslims will be punished in hell for eternity,

3. It may be thou frettest thy soul with grief, that they do not become Believers.
4. If (such) were Our Will, We could send down to them from the sky a Sign, to which they would bend their necks in humility. (holy Qur’n chapter 26)

Hi,

That point I want to add, is the concept of existence and non existence, please if you want read the whole post to get the concept then kindly reply.

This is my view, an Islamic opinion combined from the Islamic thinker, “dr mostafa mahmoud”, and the known scholar “Mohamed metwally elsharaawy”, and my reading in the holy Qur’an and the prophet’s (pbuh) traditions, still it’s personal, you can agree or not agree on it whether you’re a Muslim or not.

This concept could explain the question here, Why God is treating unevenly regarding testing and suffering and joy to different persons?

Before anyone was created, he was a non existent object; he was there but just a non existent possibility

This person in the non existence was naturally wishing to be created,

So God blessed him with the bless of creation,

Here comes the question: what this person wants his life to be? Of course he wants it to be ever joy, pleasure, etc,

But here we are forgetting the concept of the hereafter, the concept of ranking,

Let’s say a person who has good in him and evil in him (like all of us), what is the percentage of good, what is the percentage of evil, and how to really undress this person so as to put him in his rank?

I know that many now will reply that ranking includes hell which is ever lasting torture, no, in my opinion with proofs that torture is not ever lasting, it may be for a very long time, but not for eternity, hell is a place for ranking also, we will get to this point afterwards, thanks for being patient.

So to reveal this persons true nature and heart you need to put him in the circumstances suitable for this process,

This applies to Muslims ad non Muslims evenly.

So let’s say a person for instance with 50% good and 50% evil, this particular person for him to reach 100% good he needs to be put in hard circumstances so as to be humble towards God, feel the need for Him, thus get his heart purified and deserve heaven.

Lets say another person with 70% good and 30% evil, and this particular person for him to reach 100% good he needs to tested by another way, wealth, health, to test if he will use this in good, helping the poor, needed, thus deserves heaven. I hope good for Bill Geits by the way.

Lets get to the other side of the equation.

A person with 20% good and 80% evil, for him to reach 50% good he needs to be put in hard circumstances (or good circumstances respectively), he did crimes (as for any kind of crimes, moral, ethical, physical, etc), so sill in this life he will not reach 100%, he need to purified in hell first, to be punished for his crimes justly, then he will go to heaven, (many Muslims, and non Muslims are in this category)

Another person has 0% good and 100% evil, nothing will make him good by any means or believing in God, be thankful to him, so God puts him in the circumstances to reveal his true nature, he will be able to do all kinds of crimes, murder, rape, etc. So he deserves hell, in hell he will be punished for his crimes for a very long time depending on the crimes, then afterwards his torture will be over, he will not suffer, but still he will be in hell with his low rank. Heaven for him will be worse than hell, he doesn’t’ want to be thankful towards God for a single moment, so the mercy of God will put him in his rank.

So when the holy Qur’an always states the balance between the reward for good persons and punishment for evil ones , He mainly speaks to Muslims and non Muslims to help them do the effort so as to reach a good rank and deserve ever joy life in heaven.

Note here that the clear agreed upon concept in Islam is that heaven and hell are physical full body lives, not just by soul like the Christian faith, with respect

Regarding the textual proofs for this analysis I’ll post it here by God willing

Regards,
mahmoud

Regards,
mahmoud

 

[Agnostic75]

The point is that when God put in front of you compelling evidence then simply there will be no reward for good deeds at all, life itself will be meaningless.

On the contrary, having additional evidence would not hinder a God in any way from achieving fair, worthy, and just goals. Parents provide their children with compelling evidence that they (the parents) exist. That certainly does not harm their children, and it doesn't stop parents from rewarding their children for doing good deeds.

Even if a God exists, you have not provided reasonable evidence that a God exists, much less a particular God with a particular agenda.

Islam teaches that homosexuality is a sin. I doubt that a God who created homosexuality in over 1500 species of animals and birds would oppose homosexuality. Even if he did, that would only be his own arbitrary personal opinion.

In your opinion, what justifies God's actions?

 

[mahmoud mrt]

On the contrary, having additional evidence would not hinder a God in any way from achieving fair, worthy, and just goals. Parents provide their children with compelling evidence that they (the parents) exist. That certainly does not harm their children, and it doesn't stop parents from rewarding their children for doing good deeds.

You have a point, I actually thought of it while posting, that’s why I posted in the line after that the goal is God love, there will be a reward, but it will be very little in comparison, to have a compelling sings decrease the reward and feeling of free will love for God dramatically.

Even if a God exists, you have not provided reasonable evidence that a God exists, much less a particular God with a particular agenda.

The evidence is in your heart, in your body, in your soul, and in the universe.

I asked you a question, How do you speak?, and how do you see that the process is not intelligent, or you see intelligence comes from non intelligence

It’s your choice of course

Islam teaches that homosexuality is a sin. I doubt that a God who created homosexuality in over 1500 species of animals and birds would oppose homosexuality. Even if he did, that would only be his own arbitrary personal opinion.

So you compare human beings with animals who can’t control their lust, you’re a human being (on offence at all)

In your opinion, what justifies God's actions?

I posted the analysis I reached in the last post quoted, it seems that you didn’t read it, if you want to discuss it with me then kindly quote from it

Regards,
mahmoud

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

and?

And there are two possibilities:

- God is "effable", implying that you're incorrect.
- God is ineffable, implying that you have no rational basis for statements like "God is ineffable" (or, for that matter, for using the term "God" itself in any context whatsoever)

Either way, I can disregard what you say about God. It's either false or doesn't have a rational basis, so it's not derived from actual knowledge.

consider the following:

Light and Darkness, life and death, right and left, are brothers of one another. They are inseparable. Because of this neither are the good good, nor evil evil, nor is life life, nor death death. For this reason each one will dissolve into its earliest origin. But those who are exalted above the world are indissoluble, eternal.

Names given to the worldly are very deceptive, for they divert our thoughts from what is correct to what is incorrect. Thus one who hears the word "God" does not perceive what is correct, but perceives what is incorrect. So also with "the Father" and "the Son" and "the Holy Spirit" and "life" and "light" and "resurrection" and "the Church (Ekklesia)" and all the rest - people do not perceive what is correct but they perceive what is incorrect, unless they have come to know what is correct. The names which are heard are in the world [...] deceive. If they were in the Aeon (eternal realm), they would at no time be used as names in the world. Nor were they set among worldly things. They have an end in the Aeon.

One single name is not uttered in the world, the name which the Father gave to the Son; it is the name above all things: the name of the Father. For the Son would not become Father unless he wore the name of the Father. Those who have this name know it, but they do not speak it. But those who do not have it do not know it.

--Gospel of Philip

Philip further goes on to explain, the only way to know something is to become it.

That's great... but how are you immune to this deception? What makes you different?

French Orthodox theologian LeLoup states in one of his books:

If I were to say ‘I know God’, I would be a liar. God is beyond comprehension. Better to be silent and live in humility. If I were to say, ‘I do not know God’, I would also be a liar.

— Jean-Yves Leloup​

And my point is that by the same logic, if he says "God" at all, he's a liar.​

 

[Twilight Hue]

The point is simple, God is on every human born heart, ........

Regards,
mahmoud

I would agree with this part were it not for the admission of a tangible and real entity as one of substance by theists which to me remains fluff.

In a manner of speaking, I could say God "exists" in a real manner wholly through a persons behavior and action formed by ones particular belief. In other words inspiration translated to action. I could accept that in that vernacular, the spirituality of a person, but not objectively that would lend any credence towards any kind of supernatural entity.

 

[Agnostic75]

Islam teaches that homosexuality is a sin. I doubt that a God who created homosexuality in over 1500 species of animals and birds would oppose homosexuality. Even if he did, that would only be his own arbitrary personal opinion.

So you compare human beings with animals who can’t control their lust, you’re a human being (on offense at all).

Even if free will exists, you cannot provide any scientific evidence that it exists. In addition, you cannot provide any scientific evidence that homosexuality is generally harmful to homosexauls and to society, and that homosexuals have viable options.

 

[Beta]

So when "god" is "materialized", what material does it consist of, and where exactly is this existence manifested?

I was not talking about God materializing Himself (you calling God 'it' is causing that confusion.)
I was talking about 'conscious thought (it) bringing into existence what it thinks and plans ie. Matter, Nature, the Universe, mankind and even principles and laws etc, etc.