Is God against astrology?

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Lol; Zeitgeist. What next, Acharya S?

Don't know what either of these are...

We know it is not recorded in the Bible that Jesus was born on December 25th. This date was absorbed to help local pagans adjust into Christianity, and to eradicate local competition. This doesn't mean Jesus was a solar deity.

I know the Bible doesn't say anything about Jesus' birthdate. I said it's celebrated culturally, not that it's in the Bible. I also know the date was chosen to help pagans adjust, because other sun-based pagan holidays were celebrated on this day (the Bacchunalia for example). You're confusing cultural Christianity with the Bible; probably doing it deliberately to prove a point, but whatever. Don't assume I'm ignorant or that you possess knowledge I don't.

We know Jesus wasn't born on 1AD; he would probably have been born closer to 3BCE.

We KNOW nothing about Jesus, including whether or not he was even real.

Virgo holds wheat because it is the constellation in the Autumn. It's harvest time. I've never heard of the term "house of bread" used in connection with Virgo. Just asked one of my friends who is a a hardcore astronomer.

I've heard the term "house of bread" used before, specifically because Virgo is the constellation of the harvest. I'm sure your friend is a smart guy; doesn't mean he's heard it all.

The fish symbolism because of the terms "Ίησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ", (Iēsous Christos, Theou Yios, Sōtēr). These letters together mean "fish". It also correlates with in the Bible, Jesus saying "I will make you fishers of men".

And you don't think this is a reference to Pisces? These characters just HAPPENED to mean "fish" when put together? I believe in coincidences and all, but that's a reach. You'd rather believe that the Pisces parallels fit into the Jesus story conveniently, and not the other way around?

In other words, the ancient ‘Christ conspirators’ could not have recognized the 12 celestial sections in order to incorporate them into a Christian myth and announce the ushering in of the Age of Pisces as Murdock claims, because the division into the celestial sections did not occur until a meeting of the International Astronomical Union in the 20th century! Therefore, her claim is without any merit.

Do you really believe ancient societies that made astronomy their life hadn't done this already? The 12 constellations of the Zodiac were culturally significant as far back as the days of Ptolemy, probably earlier. People whose only job was to chart the movement of the sun had to have developed some kind of system to do so. There are 12 celestial "houses" in many ancient mythologies that predate the 20th century.

[...] If we want to accept her thoughts on this, we also need to accept that Dunkin Donuts is owned by an astrologer since they give a discount when you buy a dozen donuts. Grocery stores are also run by astrologers, since you buy eggs by the dozen. Even our legal system must have been influenced by astrology, since there are 12 jurors. When you want to see astrology in something, you see it, even when it requires that you read in foreign meanings into the texts"[/I]

I never said anything about the number 12 automatically signifying an astrological link every time it shows up... I don't "need" to accept anything that ridiculous because I believe the Gospels to be an astrological allegory. You're purposely being over the top to distract from the fact that astrological allegory might make sense.

More than likely, they were to represent the 12 tribes of Israel. Not zodiac stuff.

That's possible, but then again so are the astrological parallels.

Apparently, the age of Pisces dawned on 1CE and ended near the time of his death? That's not very long for an age. The Piscean age isn't even over yet.

I never said the age of Pisces lasted only 30 something years... I said Jesus' death in the Bible was symbolic of the end of the age of Pisces, not that they occurred at the same time. I'm very much aware that we're still in the age of Pisces and the age of Aquarius won't start until 2150. Your baseless assumption of my ignorance is almost offensive. If I actually gave a **** what you think about me I might be angry right now.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Could they see Orion's Belt? It sounds like this was all added after the facts.

The ancient Egyptians lined up the pyramids of Giza with the position of Orion's belt thousands of years ago. I think it's safe to assume early Christians could draw this parallel...

 

[Sleeppy]

The ancient Egyptians lined up the pyramids of Giza with the position of Orion's belt thousands of years ago. I think it's safe to assume early Christians could draw this parallel...

How are they lined up? By what standard?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

How are they lined up? By what standard?

The best standard... The visual kind.

THE GIZA PYRAMIDS AS A STELLAR REPRESENTATION OF ORION'S BELT. Was It An Iron Meteorite?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Haven't you ever seen the Transformers movie? Just saying...

 

[Sleeppy]

The best standard... The visual kind.

THE GIZA PYRAMIDS AS A STELLAR REPRESENTATION OF ORION'S BELT. Was It An Iron Meteorite?

It all looks seriously forced.

Giza Pyramids? Sorry, Not Orion's Belt | Prof's Ancient Egypt | Derek Hitchins
Have you read any of the critics against this theory?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

It all looks seriously forced.

Giza Pyramids? Sorry, Not Orion's Belt | Prof's Ancient Egypt | Derek Hitchins
Have you read any of the critics against this theory?

Yes, but I find the visual evidence to be more compelling. If I find better photos I'll show them to you. I'm going to ask my friend that went on vacation to Egypt; she has a great picture of Orion's belt over the pyramids of Giza. She's the one that originally showed me. It also makes a lot of sense that the ancient Egyptians would do this of all people.

 

[Pegg]

I practice astrology in that I read people's charts sometimes. I do check my horoscope from time to time, etc. What is your opinion on this. Astrology good or bad? thanks.

Hi,
you are obviously a person who is interested in the future, and that is not a bad thing, we should all be interested in what the future holds.

But what you've heard is correct. The bible is very clear that astrology, and other practices of divination, are not good things to get involved with.

 

[Pegg]

Christianity has strong roots in astrological myth, so I would find it a bit hypocritical for Christians to be against astrology. Jesus' "life story" is symbolic of the sun's movements.

Really??

How so??

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Really??

How so??

Keep reading. It's currently being disputed.

 

[captainbryce]

How is reading an astrology chart comparable to witchcraft. Its like I said earlier, God was condemning black magic. Astrology is not black magic.

Because in Isaiah 47:13-14 God condemns it (as I pointed out).

Were the three Magi practicing Black Magic when they found Jesus?

No. Your point?

 

[captainbryce]

Genesis:

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Yes, I'm aware of that scripture. But you're reading from the New International Version which translates this scripture very poorly (inaccurately). The stars are not meant to mark "sacred times", they are meant to be "signs" and to mark the "seasons". They are nothing more than directional and temporal markers. They are not meant to predict the future of someone's life.

Here are many other better translations of Genesis 1:14.

(Hebrew Interlinear Bible)
and·he-is-saying Elohim he-shall-become luminaries in·atmosphere-of the·heavens to-cseparate-of between the·day and·between the·night and·they-become for·signs and·for·appointments and·for·days and·years

(King James Version)
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

(Young's Literal Translation)
And God saith, `Let luminaries be in the expanse of the heavens, to make a separation between the day and the night, then they have been for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years,

(New American Standard Bible)
Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;

(English Standard Version)
And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years,

(New Living Translation)
Then God said, “Let lights appear in the sky to separate the day from the night. Let them be signs to mark the seasons, days, and years.

(Good News Translation)
Then God commanded, “Let lights appear in the sky to separate day from night and to show the time when days, years, and religious festivals begin;

(Contemporary English Version)
God said, “I command lights to appear in the sky and to separate day from night and to show the time for seasons, special days, and years.

(Common English Bible)
God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night. They will mark events, sacred seasons, days, and years.

Clearly, the literal text is meant to imply that the stars are simply to mark calendar dates and to tell the seasons (which is what every society on Earth, and many animals have been doing with them since the beginning of time). You can see that beginning from the word-for-word translations at the top all the way down to the thought-for-thought translations near the bottom, the ONLY version of the bible that translates the terms "l·athth u·l·muodim" (for signs and for appointments) as "signs to mark sacred times" is the NIV. And the NIV translation is the only one which could be construed as having anything remotely to do with astrology (which the bible clearly condemns). Therefore, you can consider the NIV translation unreliable on this issue.

 

[Breathe]

Don't know what either of these are...

Originators of this drivel.

I know the Bible doesn't say anything about Jesus' birthdate. I said it's celebrated culturally, not that it's in the Bible. I also know the date was chosen to help pagans adjust, because other sun-based pagan holidays were celebrated on this day (the Bacchunalia for example).

Good.

You're confusing cultural Christianity with the Bible; probably doing it deliberately to prove a point, but whatever.

Not at all to either.

Don't assume I'm ignorant or that you possess knowledge I don't.

Even If I did actually think that, it'd be because I was given the ammunition to believe such a thing. Don't talk codswallop, don't receive facepalms.

We KNOW nothing about Jesus, including whether or not he was even real.

I didn't say we knew, either. I said "probably". That's according to scholars.

I've heard the term "house of bread" used before, specifically because Virgo is the constellation of the harvest. I'm sure your friend is a smart guy; doesn't mean he's heard it all.

Still, not that common even if it is. We could always call Virgo "House of Pasta", since you can use wheat to make pasta. Or biscuits. Or crackers.

And you don't think this is a reference to Pisces? These characters just HAPPENED to mean "fish" when put together?

No; it's an acronym. The words were deliberately chosen as that; that does not mean it has absolutely anything to do with pisces other than through pareidolia.

I believe in coincidences and all, but that's a reach. You'd rather believe that the Pisces parallels fit into the Jesus story conveniently, and not the other way around?

It's not about what I 'want' to believe as the legitimacy of the Bible and whether or not the stories of Jesus in the Bible are (somewhat) accurate representations of him, if he existed or not; it's about what makes more sense. A massive conspiracy like this one seems like tinfoil-hat wearing propaganda. It falls into the realm of absurdity. It makes for good fiction reading... but bad scholarship.

Do you really believe ancient societies that made astronomy their life hadn't done this already? The 12 constellations of the Zodiac were culturally significant as far back as the days of Ptolemy, probably earlier. People whose only job was to chart the movement of the sun had to have developed some kind of system to do so. There are 12 celestial "houses" in many ancient mythologies that predate the 20th century.

I think you're adding a far bigger cultural weight to them in the Middle Eastern region than they would've. And if the 12-disciples = 12 constellations idea was so self-evident, it would've been noticed long ago. You know, by farmers. Or people who lived at that time.


I don't "need" to accept anything that ridiculous because I believe the Gospels to be an astrological allegory.

You're purposely being over the top to distract from the fact that astrological allegory might make sense.

That's a very big might.

Veni vidi risi.
I came, I saw, I mocked.

Your baseless assumption of my ignorance is almost offensive. If I actually gave a **** what you think about me I might be angry right now.

Lol. You threw a ***** fit over me critiquing your ideas and claimed I stretched them to absurd levels? Really? Well, I guess it's not worth continuing, then. If you don't like your ideas being critiqued because they're so valuable and fragile, don't throw them around like they're able to stand up as self-evident.

 

[Ouroboros]

The fish symbolism because of the terms "Ίησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ", (Iēsous Christos, Theou Yios, Sōtēr). These letters together mean "fish". It also correlates with in the Bible, Jesus saying "I will make you fishers of men".

That's strange. That would mean they wrote the Gospel story to fit the clever acronym. And why would they create a clever acronym that fits the change of the astrological age?

Regarding the 12 disciples = 12 zodiacs...

"In antiquity, constellations were just groups of stars, and there were no borders separating the region of one from the region of another.
...
​

That can't be right. Look up the history of the zodiac. The MULAPIN is at least from 1000 BC.

Besides, Job (in the Bible) mentions constellations too and about reading the signs, and that book is considered one of the oldest books in the Bible.

I'm pretty sure the Christians new very well what the zodiac was.

The zodiac was invented to read times of year, time for sowing, time for harvest, etc. And the Babylonians were famous for doing this.

In other words, the ancient ‘Christ conspirators’ could not have recognized the 12 celestial sections in order to incorporate them into a Christian myth and announce the ushering in of the Age of Pisces as Murdock claims, because the division into the celestial sections did not occur until a meeting of the International Astronomical Union in the 20th century! Therefore, her claim is without any merit.

My understanding is that the Dendera relief is from 50 BC, containing the whole zodiac and they're positions.

I could look up the zodiac for the early Hebrews too, but is it necessary since several members already provided bible verses from the Old Testament condemning divination and reading the stars... how could they have outlawed it in the old testament if it didn't exist? Even the Talmud recognizes 12 signs. There are mentioning of star-gazers and such in the prophets.

This is the first time I hear that the zodiac and astrology didn't exist at the time of Jesus. It just doesn't fit facts and archeological evidence.​

 

[Breathe]

That's strange. That would mean they wrote the Gospel story to fit the clever acronym.

More likely.

And why would they create a clever acronym that fits the change of the astrological age?

That's only if you go by the Neil Mann interpretation. Heindel-Rosicrucian interpretation and Shephard Simpson interpretation are vastly different, so this wouldn't apply.

[...] This is the first time I hear that the zodiac and astrology didn't exist at the time of Jesus. It just doesn't fit facts and archeological evidence.

I don't think the articles are saying that; it appears to be saying more along the lines of it didn't exist as defined as we know it now, not that the zodiac and astrology didn't exist, but that the boundaries between them were significantly blurrier in that portion of the world. They could be wrong; doesn't have much effect on me since I don't care one way or the other. But as I said, even if the articles' authors were wrong, I still see no reason to believe 12 disciples = 12 zodiacs instead of 12 tribes of Israel.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

More likely.

When I said the exact same thing it was bull ****....

I don't think the articles are saying that; it appears to be saying more along the lines of it didn't exist as defined as we know it now, not that the zodiac and astrology didn't exist, but that the boundaries between them were significantly blurrier in that portion of the world. They could be wrong; doesn't have much effect on me since I don't care one way or the other. But as I said, even if the articles' authors were wrong, I still see no reason to believe 12 disciples = 12 zodiacs instead of 12 tribes of Israel.

Not so much "foil hat propaganda" anymore. Now there's a possibility the article could be wrong... How far are you willing to backslide?

 

[Ouroboros]

More likely.

Which would suggest that the story was a myth made to fit the astrological signs. So that argument wouldn't disprove this idea but rather support it.

That's only if you go by the Neil Mann interpretation. Heindel-Rosicrucian interpretation and Shephard Simpson interpretation are vastly different, so this wouldn't apply.

The Gospels are filled with "fish" and "fisherman" symbolics. They too must've been constructed after the fact to fit the astrological ideas.

I don't think the articles are saying that; it appears to be saying more along the lines of it didn't exist as defined as we know it now, not that the zodiac and astrology didn't exist, but that the boundaries between them were significantly blurrier in that portion of the world. They could be wrong; doesn't have much effect on me since I don't care one way or the other. But as I said, even if the articles' authors were wrong, I still see no reason to believe 12 disciples = 12 zodiacs instead of 12 tribes of Israel.

Ah. Of course. That's true and I can agree on that.

But the zodiac signs were for sure quite known at that time, and it's rather curious that the age of pisces started 50-100 BC (I think it was) and all the "fish" symbolics in the Gospels. As well as the "lamb" and the ram (I think was the age before?).

I don't think the whole Gospels were based on astrology, but I'm quite certain that there are parts there were inspired by astrology. Some astrological beliefs and ideas did color the Gospel story. There are also suggestions of Greek philosophy, paganism, and other beliefs. Christianity was really a unifying religion in the early time.

Put it this way, I think Zeitgeist is exaggerated (and in the early editions contained some errors), but that doesn't mean there's some grains of truth to some of it. I don't think Jesus was the "sun=son" god to the early Christians for instance.

 

[satori8]

Which would suggest that the story was a myth made to fit the astrological signs. So that argument wouldn't disprove this idea but rather support it.


The Gospels are filled with "fish" and "fisherman" symbolics. They too must've been constructed after the fact to fit the astrological ideas.


Ah. Of course. That's true and I can agree on that.

But the zodiac signs were for sure quite known at that time, and it's rather curious that the age of pisces started 50-100 BC (I think it was) and all the "fish" symbolics in the Gospels. As well as the "lamb" and the ram (I think was the age before?).

I don't think the whole Gospels were based on astrology, but I'm quite certain that there are parts there were inspired by astrology. Some astrological beliefs and ideas did color the Gospel story. There are also suggestions of Greek philosophy, paganism, and other beliefs. Christianity was really a unifying religion in the early time.

Put it this way, I think Zeitgeist is exaggerated (and in the early editions contained some errors), but that doesn't mean there's some grains of truth to some of it. I don't think Jesus was the "sun=son" god to the early Christians for instance.

Astrological age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is two interpretations. Some say 1 AD and others say 498 AD. This is determined with which one you believe. But one thing is certain, Christians were aware of the precession of the equinoxes and the change of an age. I am sure they did choose the fish symbol partly on this, but also because Jesus fished with the disciples. So quite possible had a dual meaning. But certainly the age, whether it was then, or dawning, they were aware of it.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

The beginning of the age of Aries is referred to in the Moses story. After speaking with God, Moses sees the Israelites praying to a golden calf (Taurus). After he presents them the 10 Commandments, they tear the golden calf statue down (the end of the age of Taurus), and sacrifice a ram in reverence to Yahweh (the beginning of the age of Aries, the ram).

The astrological parallels didn't appear in the gospel until after the book of Mark was written, which was long after Christianity was an established religion. You'll notice there's no mention of a virgin birth in Mark, or many of the "miracles" performed by Jesus. Either way, modern Christianity is heavily influenced by astrology.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Astrological age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is two interpretations. Some say 1 AD and others say 498 AD. This is determined with which one you believe. But one thing is certain, Christians were aware of the precession of the equinoxes and the change of an age. I am sure they did choose the fish symbol partly on this, but also because Jesus fished with the disciples. So quite possible had a dual meaning. But certainly the age, whether it was then, or dawning, they were aware of it.

I think Jesus fished with the disciples as an allusion to the Piscean age.