Is God good? Is God loving?

[Spirit of Light]

Yes, I know that and that is what I wanted to see.

Will you be able to accept other people's answer as "their" answer to your question, or would you like answers that reflect your view of God and this physical world

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"Whatever is good in the world is the Manifestation of the attributes of God."
"There is no evil, but lack of good is evil, just as lack of light is darkness.."

With all due respect what you are saying comes from your religious beliefs. I was looking for a nonreligious answer based solely upon the objective evidence, what we can see in the world.

If God is good and God is loving what is the evidence? Look around you in this world. What evidence do you see that would indicate that a good/loving God exists? If God is good and loving why do so many people and animals suffer through no fault of their own, many people not even knowing the reason for their suffering?

True. I don't have any access to God directly. So, I can only know God through His Manifestations. And this is a belief.
I don't believe there is directly any possibility to know about God, other than scripture and what was manifested from Messengers. We say, for example Bahaullah was a Manifestation of God. We see how much Bahaullah accepted to suffer, so, He can free humanity. This proves that Baha'u'llah loved humanity so much, that He was willing to suffer for them. Same with Jesus who died on the cross, and same for all other prophets. Since God and His Manifestation is the same, we see God loved us and was willing to suffer for us. Of course, the only way this could be manifested was through prophets, because God has no physical body to suffer, accept only when He manifested Himself in this world in form of a human.

 

[firedragon]

How can I say what I believe God is divorced from any theology? How could I know what God is without a religion?

If you are interested in it, there is a whole subject on it. But that maybe just a futile effort taking time. So you can leave that.

Yes, clearly that is what people do.

That is why I made the above request.

 

[Trailblazer]

Will you be able to accept other people's answer as "their" answer to your question, or would you like answers that reflect your view of God and this physical world

I will accept all answers but I am looking for nonreligious answers because religious answers are biased by a person's beliefs so they are subjective, not objective. Besides, I already know all the theist arguments for why God is God and loving based upon various scriptures and that does not help me. I just cannot see God that way because of what I see in the world although I am trying.

 

[We Never Know]

If God is good and God is loving what is the evidence? This is all about evidence. I don’t want to see any scriptures because they are not evidence.

Look around you in this world. What evidence do you see that would indicate that a good/loving God exists? I am trying to be objective about this rather than being influenced by my own feelings and life experiences which do not constitute evidence.

Are you good and loving? We attract what we are.
If we are negative we attract negative things and vise-versa.
A god if it exists doesn't seek us, we are to seek it. If we don't seek it, why would it seek us?

 

[sun rise]

Then we would have to ask who are the wise and why are they wise, and who are the ordinary and why are they ordinary?

Who is there besides God who knows what is going on behind the veil? People believe they know but how is that knowing?

You asked in the OP about evidence that God is loving.

Many people look at injustice and suffering and think that this is evidence that God is not loving or God does not exist.

Those who have attained, are wise, are figures such as Baal Shem Tov, Kabir, Rumi, Ramakrishna, St. Francis of Assisi. They see God's love in apparent suffering.

For an example of how this can be seen take a great athlete who struggles, suffers, has injuries all in pursuit of mastery. When that athlete stands in the Olympic stand to receive her winner's medal, all the struggles will seem worth the reward.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I will accept all answers but I am looking for nonreligious answers because religious answers are biased by a person's beliefs so they are subjective, not objective. Besides, I already know all the theist arguments for why God is God and loving based upon various scriptures and that does not help me. I just cannot see God that way because of what I see in the world although I am trying.

Can a person go through life with no suffering and learn anything about them selves? Suffering is there for a reason.

 

[Trailblazer]

True. I don't have any access to God directly. So, I can only know God through His Manifestations. And this is a belief.
I don't believe there is directly any possibility to know about God, other than scripture and what was manifested from Messengers. We say, for example Bahaullah was a Manifestation of God. We see how much Bahaullah accepted to suffer, so, He can free humanity. This proves that Baha'u'llah loved humanity so much, that He was willing to suffer for them. Same with Jesus who died on the cross, and same for all other prophets. Since God and His Manifestation is the same, we see God loved us and was willing to suffer for us. Of course, the only way this could be manifested was through prophets, because God has no physical body to suffer, accept only when He manifested Himself in this world in form of a human.

As a Baha'i I could have easily written the same thing myself and I would have believed it. It makes sense as far as the Manifestations God suffering and sacrificing for humanity are concerned but I hit a roadblock when it come to God. God is not His Manifestation, God is God, and God cannot suffer the way Jesus and Baha'u'llah suffered because God is transcendent, God is not subject to suffering. So what did God really sacrifice for humans to show He loves us? Other than sending the Messengers/Manifestations what has God done to earn the titles good and loving? Religious people just believe that because of scriptures but where is the evidence of it in this world?

 

[Trailblazer]

If you are interested in it, there is a whole subject on it.

Yes, I am interested.

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you good and loving? We attract what we are.
If we are negative we attract negative things and vise-versa.

Agreed.

A god if it exists doesn't seek us, we are to seek it. If we don't seek it, why would it seek us?

No, clearly God does not seek us but why should we seek God when God is nowhere to be found?

Why shouldn't God even meet us halfway? I have to side with the atheists on this; it is an unfair arrangement where God does nothing and we are supposed to do everything, especially because God is omnipotent and we are not.

 

[Trailblazer]

Those who have attained, are wise, are figures such as Baal Shem Tov, Kabir, Rumi, Ramakrishna, St. Francis of Assisi. They see God's love in apparent suffering.

These individuals believe that because of some scriptures that they believe came from God and what those scriptures say about suffering. There is no other way they can know anything about God.

Of course the Baha'i Faith has the same teachings about suffering and how is a bounty from God and how it is beneficial for spiritual growth. The problem is that suffering does not benefit everyone and I am not one to blame people who have not benefited, calling them weak and unholy souls.

 

[Spirit of Light]

These individuals believe that because of some scriptures that they believe came from God and what those scriptures say about suffering. There is no other way they can know anything about God.

Of course the Baha'i Faith has the same teachings about suffering and how is a bounty from God and how it is beneficial for spiritual growth. The problem is that suffering does not benefit everyone and I am not one to blame people who have not benefited, calling them weak and unholy souls.

Do you believe the prophets did go through life without suffering immensely to gain the wisdom they reached?

 

[Trailblazer]

Can a person go through life with no suffering and learn anything about them selves? Suffering is there for a reason.

I am not suggesting that a person would benefit from going through life with no suffering or even little suffering but I am suggesting that going through a life that is more suffering than anything else is not beneficial, because if one is always suffering they cannot do what they need to do in life, including being of service to God and others.

“Joy gives us wings! In times of joy our strength is more vital, our intellect keener, and our understanding less clouded. We seem better able to cope with the world and to find our sphere of usefulness. But when sadness visits us we become weak, our strength leaves us, our comprehension is dim and our intelligence veiled. The actualities of life seem to elude our grasp, the eyes of our spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, and we become even as dead beings.”
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, pp. 109-110

Unlike some theists I do not blame people for their suffering because I know only too well what it is like to walk in their moccasins. Maybe you want to make suffering a spiritual problem but it isn't always a spiritual problem, sometimes it is a psychological problem a person has struggled with to no avail.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you believe the prophets did go through life without suffering immensely to gain the wisdom they reached?

I believe the Prophets had innate wisdom, I don't think they needed to suffer to gain wisdom.

I believe that humans gain wisdom by suffering but Prophets are not like the rest of us. I believe that they suffered for the sake of God and humanity, not for spiritual growth.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I am not suggesting that a person would benefit from going through life with no suffering or even little suffering but I am suggesting that going through a life that is more suffering than anything else is not beneficial, because if one is always suffering they cannot do what they need to do in life, including being of service to God and others.

“Joy gives us wings! In times of joy our strength is more vital, our intellect keener, and our understanding less clouded. We seem better able to cope with the world and to find our sphere of usefulness. But when sadness visits us we become weak, our strength leaves us, our comprehension is dim and our intelligence veiled. The actualities of life seem to elude our grasp, the eyes of our spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, and we become even as dead beings.”
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, pp. 109-110

Unlike some theists I do not blame people for their suffering because I know only too well what it is like to walk in their moccasins. Maybe you want to make suffering a spiritual problem but it isn't always a spiritual problem, sometimes it is a psychological problem a person has struggled with to no avail.

Understanding that it is the attachment to this dunya that lead to suffering is a main part of sufism, and that when one see suffering as a reminder that there are still work to be done from within our hearts. One has to chance from within to be able to connect with God.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I believe the Prophets had innate wisdom, I don't think they needed to suffer to gain wisdom.

I believe that humans gain wisdom by suffering but Prophets are not like the rest of us. I believe that they suffered for the sake of God and humanity, not for spiritual growth.

Oh

 

[firedragon]

Yes, I am interested.

Methodologically, leave your current theology aside. That means leave your particular religion aside. Dont be a Muslim, Christian, no Bible, no Quran, no prophets, no manifestations. How do you find God? I dont know if this is gonna help because we carry our bags on our backs and its very difficult to let go, muslim, bahai, christian or atheist.

God is found in natural theology. Muslim and Christian scholars and philosophers since time immemorial have engaged in it. Maybe even before Jesus on record. This is a metaphysical, logical method. You just observe nature, with a logical mind and infer things based on it.

E.g. Wajidul Wujud which is just an arabic word for "Necessary being". Its a philosophical argument for the existence of a necessary being which by definition means "something that cannot be any other manner as it is". In opposition to a contingent being which means it can exist in other ways. Every contingent being logically has to be contingent upon something necessary. That means your laptop was manufactured by someone, the raw materials come from somewhere, where it is taken from maybe soil or trees, both of them come from something because they just cannot come into existence by their own volition, so this is called "regression". Logically this cannot go on forever, which is "Infinite regression". Thus it has to stop at some point in history upon a necessary being. Thats a logical expression of how a necessary being exists.

Now this necessary being does not have any of your theological beliefs. It is only an establishment as a principle.

This is natural theology.

I just tried to put it in a few words since you are interested.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

As a Baha'i I could have easily written the same thing myself and I would have believed it. It makes sense as far as the Manifestations God suffering and sacrificing for humanity are concerned but I hit a roadblock when it come to God. God is not His Manifestation, God is God, and God cannot suffer the way Jesus and Baha'u'llah suffered because God is transcendent, God is not subject to suffering. So what did God really sacrifice for humans to show He loves us? Other than sending the Messengers/Manifestations what has God done to earn the titles good and loving? Religious people just believe that because of scriptures but where is the evidence of it in this world?

Well, by definition, God cannot loose anything or gain anything. He is independent of all creatures, and self subsisting. He told us through messengers He loves us. There is no reason He has to lie. If He did not love us, He would not have created us. Can a wise God creat something He hates? If He did not love us, or did not care for us, He would not have sent Messengers for us, and would not have provided for us.
I understand this world is a terrible place, and has many sufferings, and unpleasant things, which makes us wonder if a God exists even, or if it does, He really loves us. I am sure you already know the answers I give, but that's all comes to my mind. We are told when we go to next life, the reason for sufferings of this world becomes known and clear then. So, for now, we just have to have faith and trust in God. I don't see we can do anything about it.

 

[Lain]

My problem is that there is no evidence that God is responsible for the good, aside from what is written in scriptures.

Then this asks to me: what definition of "God" are we talking about? Because I am in answering these questions setting aside the Scriptures and thinking of some bland creator deity. With that definition in mind God would by definition be responsible for all the good that exists because He would've made everything. And then the definition of love I gave earlier which I ripped off some Greek philosopher somewhat, "love is giving good to others." So by doing that this creator deity would be loving.

 

[Kooky]

Can a person go through life with no suffering and learn anything about them selves? Suffering is there for a reason.

If that makes you cope better with suffering, fair enough. Not everyone sees it that way, though.