Is god perfect?

[Rainbow Mage]

But if they're sinning at all, that implies that Allah isn't influencing correctly to get what He wants, i.e. that He is failing in what he wants to do. Obviously, a god that fails at a task he performs can't be perfect.

No see, according to the Koran, it's even Allah's will that the wicked fail. Allah literally knows everything. Allah is also a deciever who misleads the wicked.

 

[PolyHedral]

So why does He specify sins, if He knows you'll do them anyway?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

So why does He specify sins, if He knows you'll do them anyway?

According to the Koran he doesn't specify sins. The soul just has a certain nature and certain acts damage the soul. The Koran says the following- They sin naught but against their own souls, and nothing they do harms Allah in the slightest.

 

[micrurus]

Hey, I'd just as soon you go for my nationality as my religion. At least it's a change.

Yes, it's truly tragic.

Allow me to quote one of my favorite passages of scripture:

Matthew 25:34-40 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Now it's not my intention to use this thread to brag about my religion, but I will tell you this: We take Matthew 25:34-40 very seriously. We comprise less than .2% (not 2%) of the world's population, and yet we are truly dedicated to feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and caring for the sick. The amount of humanitarian work we do for a religion that is so small, relatively speaking, is phenomenal. And don't think we only care for ourselves. Whenever there is a natural disaster of some kind anywhere in the world, we are among the first to respond. We do so without expecting anything in return, and we don't proselytise as part of our service. As a matter of fact, after the tsumani in southeast Asia a few years back, our care packages included not only food, clothing and hygiene supplies but copies of the Qur'an, since the people we were serving in their time of need were primarily Muslims. So, I believe it's entirely accurate to say that a big part of the way we worship our God is by caring for His children.

almost every modern western person exploits more poverty than that it helps. and there are onley verry litle exceptions.
do you know what foods you buy? where your products and clothes came from? even whare your oil came from. do you know why most african countrys are pulling fundings out of there education and health care to pay off a debt long payd to the west?

jist like my previous arguement, you can simply denote this as tragic and injust, but the fact is that it is our injustice, we live of the backs of hundreds of other people.

if i believed in god, i would not deem myself respectfull towards his creation, even if I helped a thousand sould, it does not give me justice to exploit the rest of my world.


on a positive note

our care packages included not only food, clothing and hygiene supplies but copies of the Qur'an, since the people we were serving in their time of need were primarily Muslims.

that fact impresses me :yes:

 

[PolyHedral]

According to the Koran he doesn't specify sins. The soul just has a certain nature and certain acts damage the soul. The Koran says the following- They sin naught but against their own souls, and nothing they do harms Allah in the slightest.

Ah, right, I think I understand.

But why would Allah be involved with us at all? He isn't testing anything, and He's the only god, so there's no rivalry like in Greek mythology. Why does He care about our souls, or anything else to do with us?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Ah, right, I think I understand.

But why would Allah be involved with us at all? He isn't testing anything, and He's the only god, so there's no rivalry like in Greek mythology. Why does He care about our souls, or anything else to do with us?

That's a good question isn't it? From my experience with Muslims, Allah isn't a very personal god.

 

[Penumbra]

Well the Koran does, actually. I have to give the Muslims that much. The Koran describes Allah as absolutely all knowing, absolutely all powerful, absolutely all encompassing. The Bible, not so much. The Bible says god repents, fails to forsee things, changes his mind, gets upset, weeps, feels anger, etc.

The Qur'an does not describe a perfect god by any stretch. It claims to be all knowing, all powerful, and all encompassing but doesn't act like such at all. Instead it acts like 7th century clans, condones torture and inequality.

 

[Evandr]

if i believed in god, i would not deem myself respectfull towards his creation, even if I helped a thousand sould, it does not give me justice to exploit the rest of my world.

A person is not required to run faster than he has strength or accomplish more than he has resources. It may be true that you and I must live on the produce of others who do not receive a fair compensation but to decry ourselves because of what we can do nothing about is to treat ourselves with every bit the injustice we find so terrible when inflicted upon others. I believe a person will be held accountable for their own sins and not the sins of others. After all we can do the Lord will pick up the slack in us. Just try your best to make a difference and you will be justified.

 

[micrurus]

A person is not required to run faster than he has strength or accomplish more than he has resources.

i will use my previous litle fact to comment on this "if every person in the world had a lifestyle like the average american, we would need six planets to support the global population"

if you say that you cannot do better than that, im sorry to say, but then you are lazy and disrespectfull to ur supposed god by disrespecting his creation. you can run alteast six times slower so the rest can keep up and you have atleast six times more resources than you need.

It may be true that you and I must live on the produce of others who do not receive a fair compensation but to decry ourselves because of what we can do nothing about is to treat ourselves with every bit the injustice we find so terrible when inflicted upon others.

so what are you saying? you except the fact that you live on the backs of others? suthing your mind by poining ur finger at a crowd or system (where you are a part of)? do you think that its wrong to even feel bad about the fact that we cause injustice?


if you believe in a perfect god, your respect for god should suffice for god. worship is trying to prove your respect, yet a perfect god would not need that proof so you are onley trying to prove to yourself that you respect. if you need to prove yourself that you respect him, you do not fully respect him and you are onley decieving yourself (but not god, hes perfect, he knows). in the mean time, you trample his creation, abuse his resourses and exploit others, how can you say you respect a god by worship if you disrespect everything he created? how can you say that you are a good person for helping the unfortunate with money and reasorces that you took from them?

if you want to show gratitude, treat his world with the respect that you think it should deserve, show some humility and don't make up excuses to condome your acts.

im sorry if i sound offensive, its just my opinion

 

[sandy whitelinger]

And if so, does he need worship?

What standard of perfection do you wish to follow here?

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Perfection implies a standard of comparison. So, the real question is: what makes you think god can be compared to anything?

[EDIT]

Ah... Sandy beat me to it...for the most part:

What standard of perfection do you wish to follow here?

 

[Penumbra]

Perfection implies a standard of comparison. So, the real question is: what makes you think god can be compared to anything?

Gods can be compared to potential, as imagined or dreamed. One of the ontological arguments put it rather elegantly: I conceive of a being than which no greater can be conceived.

So if someone can point out legitimate shortcomings of a given god claim, then the claim is imperfect. Admittedly, perfection is something which is awkward to apply to something that is multifaceted. For instance, it's a rather subjective thing to assess the quality or beauty of a given piece of artwork. When it comes to a circle or sphere, though, the concept of a perfect circle or perfect sphere is a measurable, objective thing, and so the adjective is more appropriate.

However, there are god concepts that under most reasonable scenarios, clearly lack perfection as the word would typically be understood. Some gods are described as not having all information, or making mistakes, or performing illogical actions, or having regrets, or creating imperfection, or experiencing negative emotions. Some of them have descriptions that sound less enlightened than even a typical self-actualized human.

 

[Sunstone]

How would you know if god were perfect?

 

[Kriya Yogi]

If hundreds of profound saints say God is perfect then I'll take their word for it until I reach their state of enlightenment.

 

[Penumbra]

How would you know if god were perfect?

It may be impossible to do so, considering the partially subjective nature of the word "perfect" when applied to multifaceted concepts.

Somewhat easier, it would be, to determine that an imperfect thing is indeed imperfect. The Socratic Method is highly relevant in such a case. In other words, if someone were to describe a god that they consider perfect, one could discuss it critically and attempt to point out areas of imperfection, contradiction, poor reasoning, and so forth. If a fault is found, the concept is imperfect. If one were unable to find a fault, perfection may have been found.

 

[Sunstone]

If hundreds of profound saints say God is perfect then I'll take their word for it until I reach their state of enlightenment.

"There is no such thing as profoundity" -- Jiddu Krishnamurti

 

[Penumbra]

If hundreds of profound saints say God is perfect then I'll take their word for it until I reach their state of enlightenment.

This method involves relying on people that are claimed to be enlightened. Unless it can be verified that enlightenment is an existent state, and that the people making the claims of perfection of god are indeed enlightened, and that enlightened people are the highest authority when it comes to identifying perfection (which would likely necessitate perfection for themselves) then this approach isn't particularly useful.

 

[Kriya Yogi]

"There is no such thing as profoundity" -- Jiddu Krishnamurti

Saying anything is profound is an opinion. I meant it in the context of believing the word of a true saint.

 

[Kriya Yogi]

This method involves relying on people that are claimed to be enlightened. Unless it can be verified that enlightenment is an existent state, and that the people making the claims of perfection of god are indeed enlightened, and that enlightened people are the highest authority when it comes to identifying perfection (which would likely necessitate perfection for themselves) then this approach isn't particularly useful.

Well there are ways of verifying their words. If they are always right and show traits of a true avatar then its safe to say for me they know what they are talking about. Spiritual states can be verified and at my current level of experience everything that true saints have said have been true. My faith becomes adamantine when its backed by verified experiences of my own.

 

[Evandr]

i will use my previous litle fact to comment on this "if every person in the world had a lifestyle like the average american, we would need six planets to support the global population"

That may be true but everyone does not live so and for good reason. I have always held the position that we cannot see the beginning or the end of this trial we call mortal probation, we can only see the here and now. The pre-mortal and post mortal are hidden from us. We must be very careful not to try to judge God by what we are given to know because (1) we have not the right and (2) we do not posses enough knowledge or wisdom to draw correct conclusions (but that does not stop some people from doing it). Some are born with the proverbial silver spoon in their mouths while others are born, live, and die in abject poverty. To us this seems unjust but it makes for a wide range of opportunities wherein mankind may be tried; in the end, after all is said and done, all will be given that same opportunity to accept or reject that which is necessary to gain eternal salvation in the presence of God. It would be rather useless if we were all exactly the same because there would be none to whom we could exercise the commandments to succor the needs of others (among a great many other drawbacks that would be associated with such a condition).

if you say that you cannot do better than that, im sorry to say, but then you are lazy and disrespectfull to ur supposed god by disrespecting his creation. you can run alteast six times slower so the rest can keep up and you have at least six times more resources than you need.

Please take my statement correctly. When I said all that I can do I meant it. That encompasses exercising my God given right and ability to strive to do more, pushing my own perceived limits, but in the end one who strives to exact every ounce of courage and ability from him or herself will be justified even though they did not save and/or provide comfort for everyone. I don't see you saving the whole world from injustice; does that mean you have failed as a human being, deserving to be cast away from your God?

so what are you saying? you except the fact that you live on the backs of others?

Absolutely not, I work hard to make my own way, doing what I can for myself and those within my sphere of influence and dealing justly with others. I like to think that I have the courage to change the things I can, the serenity to accept the things I cannot, and the wisdom to know the difference. If one spends inordinate amounts of time stressing over the things the currently cannot change then those things will forever remain in that category.

suthing your mind by poining ur finger at a crowd or system (where you are a part of)? do you think that its wrong to even feel bad about the fact that we cause injustice?

Again, absolutely not, feeling bad and even angry to a point can be a great motivator but they are not the only ones, they must be tempered with the commandments of God so that your efforts can have the added power provided by such temperance to be able to accomplish more. Again, playing the martyr only detracts from my ability to grow and do more good. To shun everything that might have come by the blood, sweat and tears of others would be a task so monumental that there would be time for nothing else. To do so would label me a useless fanatic. I want to be part of a solution not a disgruntled and benched player who does nothing but sit and accuse others for their woes. Also, focusing so intently on one aspect of life and creation can cause one to overlook other important aspects of their own existence. Life requires balance.

if you believe in a perfect god, your respect for god should suffice for god. worship is trying to prove your respect, yet a perfect god would not need that proof so you are onley trying to prove to yourself that you respect. if you need to prove yourself that you respect him, you do not fully respect him and you are onley decieving yourself (but not god, hes perfect, he knows). in the mean time, you trample his creation, abuse his resourses and exploit others, how can you say you respect a god by worship if you disrespect everything he created? how can you say that you are a good person for helping the unfortunate with money and reasorces that you took from them?

Me thinks you err in your assessment of my intent. I believe that a person cannot show respect for God and His commandments without engaging in worship. I do not worship to prove anything, only to show my respect for God my worship by my actions among other things like respecting all His creations. I esteem my Heavenly Father to be worthy of my complete devotion, He is my God and I give it to him without reservation. That is called worship and I do not do it to be seen of men only to be as happy as I can be and for me that means engaging in the worship of God according to His commandments. To do otherwise would label me a hypocrite.

if you want to show gratitude, treat his world with the respect that you think it should deserve, show some humility and don't make up excuses to condome your acts.

I do!! At least I try to. A person who endeavors to keep all the commandments of God will never be guilty of the moral crimes you assert.

im sorry if i sound offensive, its just my opinion

I took no offence, you need not apologize