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Is God so disgusting and irrational?

Spiderman

Veteran Member
So, according to many Christians, Anne Frank is in hell through no fault of her own, but figures like Hitler and Mussolini could essentially just accept Jesus as Lord and savior, and get to heaven for believing in Jesus. Pretty stupid, right? You'd be surprised how many intelligent productive people believe that.

A non-christian who is honest, courageous, hardworking, long-suffering, patient, prudent, wise, sincere, charitable, and altruistic goes to hell for not believing a Dogma, but a communist or Fascist Dictator responsible for millions of deaths and the worst tortures and inhumanities can get to heaven for believing in something/someone and saying "sorry".

So, Hitler could have just believed in Jesus, said sorry, (and die by hanging instead of suicide), and he goes to heaven?

Meanwhile Gandhi and Buddha are in hell!

Is God even loveable under those terms? I don't think i could get along for five minutes with a person who loves something so disgusting.

Fortunately Catholics don't believe that. It runs rampant in Protestantism.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Thread 2:

On a lighter note, I live here:


I also go to the capitol building daily. It's on a hill so is called "capitol Hill":

IMG_20180901_141531.jpg
IMG_20180901_141439.jpg
 

Misunderstood

Active Member
Hello PopeAdope, sounds like you are pretty upset with God lately, or maybe, thinking you do not believe in God at all.

Anyway, I wish you well and hope you can work out some of your feeling. It's probably the worst thing to be conflicted because you do not know what to do or where to turn.

Some of what you said may be true at least in what I believe. People even with the same religious background have different views on things, and my views on God may vary from what others of the same faith believe. I bet even you and I believe the same about some things.

The devil believes 'God exists', but I feel he does not 'believe in God'. From my take of the Bible the devil is against God, deceitful, lies and goes after his own desires. God feels we need to be servant to those around, help those in need and to do good to others. If we help each other out and work for the good of everyone, society can grow, if we lie, cheat, steal, and keep pulling each other down to build ourselves up society will destroy itself. That I feel is what 'believing in God' is all about. Believing that 'God exits' I feel makes no difference. So if those other people you mention believes along what I feel God believes, I feel they know Jesus, or at least they have His Spirit in their heart and will be saved, that is even if they do not actually know his name.

I hope nothing but good for you, and hope you get things figured out.
 
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Spiderman

Veteran Member
Hello PopeAdope, sounds like you are pretty upset with God lately, or maybe, thinking you do not believe in God at all.

Anyway, I wish you well and hope you can work out some of your feeling. It's probably the worst thing to be conflicted because you do not know what to do or where to turn.

Some of what you said may be true at least in what I believe. People even with the same religious background have different views on things and my views on God may vary from what others of the same faith believe. I bet even you and I believe the same about some things.

The devil believes 'God exists', but I feel he does not 'believe in God'. From my take of the Bible the devil is against God, deceitful, lies and goes after his own desires. God feels we need to be servant to those around, help those in need and to do good to others. If we help each other out and work for the good of everyone, society can grow, if lie, cheat, steal, and keep pulling each other down to build ourselves up society will destroy itself. That I feel is what 'believing is God' is all about. Believing that 'God exits' I feel makes no difference. So if those other people you mention believes along what I feel God believes I feel they know Jesus, or at least they have His Spirit in their heart and will be saved ,that is even if they do not actually know his name.

I hope nothing but good for you, and hope you get things figured out.
I don't have a problem with God if he has the virtues of a charitable, just, rational, righteous, sane, compassionate person.

I have a problem with the concept of God that is being promoted by many Christians, especially Sola scriptura Protestants.

Catholics on the other hand often believe that a person can repent after death, and that all non-christians will have a final illumination and know the truth before they are judged.

This makes a lot more sense to me.

Granted, some of the people who know all the truth will still not want to be with God in heaven, therefore God is not going to force them to be there, and they would not like it there anyway.
 

Misunderstood

Active Member
I don't have a problem with God if he has the virtues of a charitable, just, rational, righteous, sane, compassionate person.

I'm glad to hear that. I feel that God is the way you describe, hopefully you believe that is the way we should live our lives also, even though, I have to admit none of us actually do, but it is what we want to do.

I have a problem with the concept of God that is being promoted by many Christians, especially Sola scriptura Protestants.

I have to admit I had to look that up, I had an idea of what it meant and was close, but had to make sure. I guess you could say that could describe me (that I do believe in the bible) but, I do believe that the bible is not necessary to be saved. Having the Spirit of God in you heart is.

Catholics on the other hand often believe that a person can repent after death, and that all non-christians will have a final illumination and know the truth before they are judged.

This makes a lot more sense to me.

Granted, some of the people who know all the truth will still not want to be with God in heaven, therefore God is not going to force them to be there, and they would not like it there anyway.

If that makes since to you that is good, my belief is a bit different, however I feel it is a matter of semantics and is not really that important as long as you 'believe in God'.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
So, according to many Christians, Anne Frank is in hell through no fault of her own, but figures like Hitler and Mussolini could essentially just accept Jesus as Lord and savior, and get to heaven for believing in Jesus. Pretty stupid, right? You'd be surprised how many intelligent productive people believe that.

A non-christian who is honest, courageous, hardworking, long-suffering, patient, prudent, wise, sincere, charitable, and altruistic goes to hell for not believing a Dogma, but a communist or Fascist Dictator responsible for millions of deaths and the worst tortures and inhumanities can get to heaven for believing in something/someone and saying "sorry".

So, Hitler could have just believed in Jesus, said sorry, (and die by hanging instead of suicide), and he goes to heaven?

Meanwhile Gandhi and Buddha are in hell!

Is God even loveable under those terms? I don't think i could get along for five minutes with a person who loves something so disgusting.

Fortunately Catholics don't believe that. It runs rampant in Protestantism.
Thing is, good Christians can't bother themselves with such reasoning, and if necessary cover their ears and go,

AntiqueFatalFluke-size_restricted.gif



.
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member
I have a problem with the concept of God that is being promoted by many Christians, especially Sola scriptura Protestants.
I started my life being baptized as a baby in the protestant church. Not my choice, and from the moment I could speak out on this issue I told my mother "this God concept is wrong IMHO"

God is invented by humans. Hell is created to make them feel guilty so that they can be controlled. Churches collect their guilt payments.
My new concept is full of Light. I do not believe in their God, Hell, Churches. I believe in unconditional LOVE available to all who desire this.
I don't talk about human love nor sex
The LOVE that transcends all suffering

May such a God Bless us All
 
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sealchan

Well-Known Member
So, according to many Christians, Anne Frank is in hell through no fault of her own, but figures like Hitler and Mussolini could essentially just accept Jesus as Lord and savior, and get to heaven for believing in Jesus. Pretty stupid, right? You'd be surprised how many intelligent productive people believe that.

A non-christian who is honest, courageous, hardworking, long-suffering, patient, prudent, wise, sincere, charitable, and altruistic goes to hell for not believing a Dogma, but a communist or Fascist Dictator responsible for millions of deaths and the worst tortures and inhumanities can get to heaven for believing in something/someone and saying "sorry".

So, Hitler could have just believed in Jesus, said sorry, (and die by hanging instead of suicide), and he goes to heaven?

Meanwhile Gandhi and Buddha are in hell!

Is God even loveable under those terms? I don't think i could get along for five minutes with a person who loves something so disgusting.

Fortunately Catholics don't believe that. It runs rampant in Protestantism.

Perhaps the whole premise is wrong...that there is some specific threshold that says good people go left, bad people go right (or vice versa depending on your political views ;-)) on their way into the afterlife.

Maybe this is all just an exercise in imagination to help us understand our faith and this exercise has rational limitations that limit its usefulness.
 

iam1me

Active Member
Yep; I fundamentally disagree with any sect that makes salvation about accepting some list of doctrines rather than about what an individual does, how they live their life. It's neither logical nor scriptural.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
I'm glad to hear that. I feel that God is the way you describe, hopefully you believe that is the way we should live our lives also, even though, I have to admit none of us actually do, but it is what we want to do.



I have to admit I had to look that up, I had an idea of what it meant and was close, but had to make sure. I guess you could say that could describe me (that I do believe in the bible) but, I do believe that the bible is not necessary to be saved. Having the Spirit of God in you heart is.



If that makes since to you that is good, my belief is a bit different, however I feel it is a matter of semantics and is not really that important as long as you 'believe in God'.
Happy birthday!
 

OtherSheep

<--@ Titangel
just accept Jesus as Lord and savior, and get to heaven for believing in Jesus. Pretty stupid, right? You'd be surprised how many intelligent productive people believe that.
...
Fortunately Catholics don't believe that. It runs rampant in Protestantism.

Matthew 19
And Jesus said, 'Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, honour thy father and mother, and, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.'

ON THE LATE MASSACRE IN PIEDMONT

"Avenge, O Lord, thy slaughtered saints, whose bones
Lie scattered on the Alpine mountains cold ;
Even them who kept thy truth so pure of old,
When all our fathers worshipped stocks and stones,
Forget not : in thy book record their groans
Who were thy sheep, and in their ancient fold
Slain by the bloody Piedmontese, that rolled
Mother and infant down the rocks. Their moans
The vales redoubled to the hills, and they
To heaven. Their martyred blood and ashes sow
O'er all th' Italian fields, where still doth sway
The triple Tyrant; that from these may grow
A hundredfold, who, having learnt thy way,
Early may fly the Babylonian woe."
--John Milton, 1655.


A History of the Inquisition In The Middle Ages
By Henry Charles Lea - 1888
A history of the Inquisition of the middle ages


________________________
Followers of Jesus don't kill anyone for any reason.
We believe that Jesus meant each and every word He said.
And that it will be up to God to separate the wheat from the chaff.
 
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Spiderman

Veteran Member
Matthew 19
And Jesus said, 'Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, honour thy father and mother, and, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.'

ON THE LATE MASSACRE IN PIEDMONT

"Avenge, O Lord, thy slaughtered saints, whose bones
Lie scattered on the Alpine mountains cold ;
Even them who kept thy truth so pure of old,
When all our fathers worshipped stocks and stones,
Forget not : in thy book record their groans
Who were thy sheep, and in their ancient fold
Slain by the bloody Piedmontese, that rolled
Mother and infant down the rocks. Their moans
The vales redoubled to the hills, and they
To heaven. Their martyred blood and ashes sow
O'er all th' Italian fields, where still doth sway
The triple Tyrant; that from these may grow
A hundredfold, who, having learnt thy way,
Early may fly the Babylonian woe."
--John Milton, 1655.


A History of the Inquisition In The Middle Ages
By Henry Charles Lea - 1888
A history of the Inquisition of the middle ages


________________________
Followers of Jesus don't kill anyone for any reason.
We believe that Jesus meant each and every word He said.
And that it will be up to God to separate the wheat from the chaff.
the Catholic Church doesn't teach that we should kill either. Those people were doing things that the Catholic Church never taught us to do. The Catholic Church teaches us to love our enemies and love all people.

The Catholic Church does more to help people than any other institution on the Earth.

You got your Bible from the Catholic Church. The Bible is a Catholic book.
 

OtherSheep

<--@ Titangel
the Catholic Church doesn't teach that we should kill either. Those people were doing things that the Catholic Church never taught us to do. The Catholic Church teaches us to love our enemies and love all people.

The Catholic Church does more to help people than any other institution on the Earth.

You got your Bible from the Catholic Church. The Bible is a Catholic book.

In the days of the Inquisition, you guys personally bloodied the streets, because your 'holy father' told y'all to do it.

How is it that you get around the fact that Jesus says don't call that man your father?

Does your universal/catholic bible still have the 10 commandments without the idolatory part?

In fact, your universal religion is the precise vehicle... which wrote the canon, that accepts the seeds that fall on shallow soil to whom Shaul preaches... which you are pleased to call 'pretty stupid'.

Some Protestants don't like Rome or Shaul.
 
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Spiderman

Veteran Member
What on earth makes you defend a religion that has murdered untold numbers of people who didn't go along with what you guys believe to be true? By staying in that place, you are in fact sanctioning the Inquisition.

And re: your OP... do you have the letters of Shaul from Tarsus in your universal bible? Of course you do. In fact, your universal religion is the precise vehicle which wrote the canon which accepts the seeds that fall on shallow soil, to and for whom Shaul preaches. Any one who would have Protested the canonization of Shaul's Talmudic essays had already been murdered by Rome Part One.
Just because Catholics have performed inquisitions many centuries ago, does not mean it was part of the religion.

the religion of Catholicism is contained in the catechism of the Catholic Church. It's All About Love, Peace, faith, hope, and charity.

People that are killing people for not being Catholic, are choosing to not practice the Catholic faith.

The Catholic Church teaches that we should forgive others and love our enemies.

If your religion had the power the Catholic church had, I bet your religion would also have many (people and Nations) that killed in the name of your religion.

It doesn't mean your religion is to blame!
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
What on earth makes you defend a religion that has murdered untold numbers of people who didn't go along with what you guys believe to be true? By staying in that place, you are in fact sanctioning the Inquisition.

And re: your OP... do you have the letters of Shaul from Tarsus in your universal bible? Of course you do. In fact, your universal religion is the precise vehicle which wrote the canon which accepts the seeds that fall on shallow soil, to and for whom Shaul preaches. Any one who would have Protested the canonization of Shaul's Talmudic essays had already been murdered by Rome Part One.

And if the universal church you're so proud of didn't demand tithes, your man in Rome would have had to give up his throne and his gold... and maybe get a real job.

Does your universal bible still have a rewritten version of 10 commandments, without the idolatory part?

yeah... I don't want anything from your universal religion.
The inquisition's had to do with politics more than religion.

When politics allies itself with any religion, such things happen.
 

OtherSheep

<--@ Titangel
the catechism of the Catholic Church.
It's All About Love, Peace, faith, hope, and charity.

"I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last [to be] more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols."(Rev.2:19-20)

Catholic Bible
1. You shall not have other gods besides me.
{here's where the warning against all of your idols belongs}
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
4. Honor your father and your mother
5. You shall not kill
6. You shall not commit adultery
7. You shall not steal
8. You shall not bear false witness
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. 10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods
{These last two are both Commandment 10... splitting it in half doesn't fool anyone.}


Exodus 20:3-17
1 Thou shalt have no other gods beside me.
2 Thou shalt not make to thyself an idol, nor likeness of anything, whatever things are in the heaven above, and whatever are in the earth beneath, and whatever are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them; for I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, recompensing the sins of the fathers upon the children, to the third and fourth generation to them that hate me, and bestowing mercy on them that love me to thousands of them, and on them that keep my commandments.
3 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord thy God will not acquit him that takes his name in vain.
4 Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days thou shalt labour, and shalt perform all thy work. But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt do no work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy servant nor thy maidservant, thine ox nor thine ***, nor any cattle of thine, nor the stranger that sojourns with thee. For in six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth, and the sea and all things in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it.
5 Honour thy father and thy mother, that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest live long on the good land, which the Lord thy God gives to thee.
6 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
7 Thou shalt not steal.
8 Thou shalt not kill.
9 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house; nor his field, nor his servant, nor his maid, nor his ox, nor his [burro], nor any of his cattle, nor whatever belongs to thy neighbour.

"And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with Death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."(Rev.2:22-23)

Idolatry is Adultery against God.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. ... 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."

ON THE LATE MASSACRE IN PIEDMONT

"Avenge, O Lord, thy slaughtered saints, whose bones
Lie scattered on the Alpine mountains cold ;
Even them who kept thy truth so pure of old,
When all our fathers worshipped stocks and stones,
Forget not : in thy book record their groans
Who were thy sheep, and in their ancient fold
Slain by the bloody Piedmontese, that rolled
Mother and infant down the rocks. Their moans
The vales redoubled to the hills, and they
To heaven. Their martyred blood and ashes sow
O'er all th' Italian fields, where still doth sway
The triple Tyrant; that from these may grow
A hundredfold, who, having learnt thy way,
Early may fly the Babylonian woe."
--John Milton, 1655.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
"I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last [to be] more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols."(Rev.2:19-20)

Catholic Bible
1. You shall not have other gods besides me.
{here's where the warning against all of your idols belongs}
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
4. Honor your father and your mother
5. You shall not kill
6. You shall not commit adultery
7. You shall not steal
8. You shall not bear false witness
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. 10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods
{These last two are both Commandment 10... splitting it in half doesn't fool anyone.}


Exodus 20:3-17
1 Thou shalt have no other gods beside me.
2 Thou shalt not make to thyself an idol, nor likeness of anything, whatever things are in the heaven above, and whatever are in the earth beneath, and whatever are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them; for I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, recompensing the sins of the fathers upon the children, to the third and fourth generation to them that hate me, and bestowing mercy on them that love me to thousands of them, and on them that keep my commandments.
3 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord thy God will not acquit him that takes his name in vain.
4 Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days thou shalt labour, and shalt perform all thy work. But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt do no work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy servant nor thy maidservant, thine ox nor thine ***, nor any cattle of thine, nor the stranger that sojourns with thee. For in six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth, and the sea and all things in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it.
5 Honour thy father and thy mother, that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest live long on the good land, which the Lord thy God gives to thee.
6 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
7 Thou shalt not steal.
8 Thou shalt not kill.
9 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house; nor his field, nor his servant, nor his maid, nor his ox, nor his [burro], nor any of his cattle, nor whatever belongs to thy neighbour.

"And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with Death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."(Rev.2:22-23)

Idolatry is Adultery against God.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. ... 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."

ON THE LATE MASSACRE IN PIEDMONT

"Avenge, O Lord, thy slaughtered saints, whose bones
Lie scattered on the Alpine mountains cold ;
Even them who kept thy truth so pure of old,
When all our fathers worshipped stocks and stones,
Forget not : in thy book record their groans
Who were thy sheep, and in their ancient fold
Slain by the bloody Piedmontese, that rolled
Mother and infant down the rocks. Their moans
The vales redoubled to the hills, and they
To heaven. Their martyred blood and ashes sow
O'er all th' Italian fields, where still doth sway
The triple Tyrant; that from these may grow
A hundredfold, who, having learnt thy way,
Early may fly the Babylonian woe."
--John Milton, 1655.
I don't worship idols, so you're very long post was totally pointless. I also don't follow the disgusting Old Testament!
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Honoring and invoking and praying for the dead is not worshipping idols.

I'm well aware that there is one God. I simply believe that the dead are on a journey toward spiritual Perfection and the souls in heaven assist the souls on Earth.

I believe prayer for the dead has power just like prayer for the living does.
 
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