Is God the source of evil too?

[chevron1]

Leaving aside my skepticism of Patty Hearst's veracity....

why doubt her at all?

 

[ether-ore]

I think it depends on a particular perspective. If one considers (as I do) that we are eternal beings (as in... not created) with the potential for making choices, then no, God did not create evil. Evil in this case exists in the "potential" choices of beings that have always existed which means that the potential for evil always existed without beginning and without being created. To further elaborate on that concept of eternal beings (or "intelligences") and to segue into the other perspective; these "intelligences" while being eternal and having the potential for making choices, they have a very limited opportunity to actually make a choice because they lack the apparatus to act.

God, out of love and generosity, grants to these beings something they could not get for themselves... the apparatus to act; which is the physical body. From this perspective, it could be said that God created the potential for evil because He created the vehicle for its realization. But, the actualization of evil still remains with the now realized choices of beings that have always existed. In the utilization of this [new to us] physical apparatus, we make choices that are not best suited for our eternal welfare (keeping in mind that we are still eternal beings and this mortality is not all there is). God, knowing that we would make errors, gave us guidelines to follow as an aid for avoiding wrong choices. These guidelines are God's laws. Remember, we are eternal beings, and therefore, we naturally have agency... the freedom to choose. Therefore, we can choose to ignore or violate God's laws, thus... we create evil ourselves.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I think it depends on a particular perspective. If one considers (as I do) that we are eternal beings (as in... not created) with the potential for making choices, then no, God did not create evil. Evil in this case exists in the "potential" choices of beings that have always existed which means that the potential for evil always existed without beginning and without being created. To further elaborate on that concept of eternal beings (or "intelligences") and to segue into the other perspective; these "intelligences" while being eternal and having the potential for making choices, they have a very limited opportunity to actually make a choice because they lack the apparatus to act.

God, out of love and generosity, grants to these beings something they could not get for themselves... the apparatus to act; which is the physical body. From this perspective, it could be said that God created the potential for evil because He created the vehicle for its realization. But, the actualization of evil still remains with the now realized choices of beings that have always existed. In the utilization of this [new to us] physical apparatus, we make choices that are not best suited for our eternal welfare (keeping in mind that we are still eternal beings and this mortality is not all there is). God, knowing that we would make errors, gave us guidelines to follow as an aid for avoiding wrong choices. These guidelines are God's laws. Remember, we are eternal beings, and therefore, we naturally have agency... the freedom to choose. Therefore, we can choose to ignore or violate God's laws, thus... we create evil ourselves.

In the context of considering God as the creator of the potential for evil,, likewise would you also consider God as the creator of the potential for good? When I read Isaiah 45:7, that is what I see....

 

[ether-ore]

In the context of considering God as the creator of the potential for evil,, likewise would you also consider God as the creator of the potential for good? When I read Isaiah 45:7, that is what I see....

I agree, but that isn't the topic.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I agree, but that isn't the topic.

Oh...I think it is! I consider that the very concept of evil is one that is determined by relativity.....evil does not exist in the absolute sense...only in the relative sense of comparison with its complementary opposite concept... good. Good and evil as complementary opposite concepts in the context of absolute God, are no different to the complementary opposite concepts of ying and yang in the context of absolute Tao...

 

[arthra]

what is the relationship between the existence of evil and God?

The Baha'i view as I understand it is that "evil" has no independent existence by itself. We as human beings have choice and bear responsibility for our actions. We can acquire through our habits various directions aside from our innate goodness.

 

[ether-ore]

Oh...I think it is! I consider that the very concept of evil is one that is determined by relativity.....evil does not exist in the absolute sense...only in the relative sense of comparison with its complementary opposite concept... good. Good and evil as complementary opposite concepts in the context of absolute God, are no different to the complementary opposite concepts of ying and yang in the context of absolute Tao...

OK...if you insist (exclamation mark !) ... except that good and evil must be defined in terms of God's laws. It is the law that is the basis for comparison and not just good and evil in isolation. Without reference to God's eternally objective moral laws, good and evil become subjective to the things that please men. Subjective morality is the bane of man's existence and is more often than not, the cause for man's failure in the test of mortality. In addition to that, Man's subjective morality "presuming" to be in the name of God is the cause of war, death and destruction.

I do have to say that there was one time that I can think of where God's command instigated death and destruction. That was God's judgement of the people in the land of Canaan. The instrument God chose to use in passing judgment on those peoples was the Children of Israel. It must be pointed out that God certainly had warned these people, through the prophet Balaam, of their impending destruction if they did not repent. Balaam himself fell because he broke the covenant he had made with God.

By equating the Tao to God's law, then you are substituting man's subjective ideas for the eternal and objective... Or... Do you believe that Buddhism subscribes to the concept of God?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

OK...if you insist (exclamation mark !) ... except that good and evil must be defined in terms of God's laws. It is the law that is the basis for comparison and not just good and evil in isolation. Without reference to God's eternally objective moral laws, good and evil become subjective to the things that please men. Subjective morality is the bane of man's existence and is more often than not, the cause for man's failure in the test of mortality. In addition to that, Man's subjective morality "presuming" to be in the name of God is the cause of war, death and destruction.

I do have to say that there was one time that I can think of where God's command instigated death and destruction. That was God's judgement of the people in the land of Canaan. The instrument God chose to use in passing judgment on those peoples was the Children of Israel. It must be pointed out that God certainly had warned these people, through the prophet Balaam, of their impending destruction if they did not repent. Balaam himself fell because he broke the covenant he had made with God.

By equating the Tao to God's law, then you are substituting man's subjective ideas for the eternal and objective... Or... Do you believe that Buddhism subscribes to the concept of God?

Taoism is not Buddhism, though in the case of Dhyan/Chan/Zen, they are related. Yes, I do believe the reality meant to be represented by the concept of absolute God is the same as that meant to be represented by the concept of Nirvana and Tao....and that reality is forever beyond the knowledge of the mortal mind because it is non-dual....absolutely indivisible. However, this is a big subject and would take it off topic to explain, suffice to say though, any divine communication between man and a more evolved entity of the celestial hierarchy/holarchy that may be seen as God, is not the absolute non-dual existence of which I speak. Having said that, I understand that some of these higher beings who have been the source of guidance to humanity wrt moral laws, etc., do speak with the authority of the absolute and thus I accept your argument is relevant to mortals in the context of their present state of spiritual development. Beyond that though, I understand there is much more to religion than that written in scripture....and that can only be realized from within, not in words or concepts...