Is "hard work" a virtue?

[Jackytar]

And I believe that excellence is in short supply. In fact, it's so rare that people are often shocked when they experience it - either as a customer or as a manager. They're so used to being "served" by people who are more concerned about who's texting them than about who's sitting in front of them paying for a service.

Hooray for Kathryn!
Compare this to Alceste who wrote...

"Every other conventional job I've ever had has not been worth working hard at. ******** paper pushing nonsense of no value to anyone but the owner/s of the company."

...as she posts to this forum every day from work.

As an employer is it any wonder I'm looking for Kathryns and not Alcestes? Oh the injustice of it all!

Jackytar

 

[Jackytar]

I might have legitimate concerns as to the local water quality, the property value of my home, the unbelievable stench (don't know if you've ever smelled a pulp mill)... To deny me and my neighbours any input into the arrangement, and if it is approved, to deny us the opportunity to scrutinize, regulate and enforce some of the mill's activities to minimize the environmental and social harm is infringing on our liberties. "How isn't that readily apparent to you?"

I'm not sure this is worth it, Alceste. I've stated repeatedly and in clear terms that the Libertarian principle of property would protect individuals from polluters and that this is a legitimate role for governments and the courts. By these principles private enterprises will be answerable to the community if they impinge on the security, condition and enjoyment of their property. I've even went as far as to say that releasing carbon into the atmosphere - something that Canadians do more of per capita than Americans btw - would be subject to this principle. Yet you keep returning to this straw man when backed into a corner. I'm clearly wasting my time.

As an aside, I was born into a pulp-and-paper community - Corner Brook, Newfoundland.

Why, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, just like you.

Just not economic liberty.

Oh, for Pete's sake. You already said ages ago you agree with a minimum wage in principle, now you're arguing there should be no minimum wage (and, by implication, no safety standards, no child labour laws, no sexual harassment laws, no discrimination laws) because you think this benevolent God you call "the market" is infallible and just. Which is it? Do you agree there should be a minimum wage or don't you?

If you agree, then the question is only whether or not the minimum wage should be set at a rate it is actually possible to live on.

What I said was that I'm not against it per se because I don't see it as an important issue when by far the most employers, like myself, already pay well above the minimum wage for unskilled, unreliable workers. In other words, the minimum wage does not impact the price mechanism in the labor market to any significant extent. That's why it's so hard for the other posters here to find any data on this. But I am very much opposed to what you demand which is price controls in the labor market. Higher wages are brought about by a robust economy where employers have to compete for workers of all stripes.

Jackytar

 

[Kathryn]

Wow, Jacky, thank you.

The total lack of understanding of a work ethic, obedience, and diligence in the workplace today is appalling - and depressing.

Not to brag, but I will say this - I have never gone one minute, let alone half a day, without a job - and a backup offer in my pocket. Neither has my husband, who is the hardest working man I know. With the economy going in the crapper as we speak, this could well change, but I'd be willing to bet we're the ones who turn out the lights.

The idea of texting, IMing or even checking my personal email at work is ANATHEMA to me - that's not what I'm getting paid to do. The flip side of that is WHEN I AM OFF, I'M OFF and with my family. Call me old fashioned but it's worked well for me and my employers have always appreciated it, and rewarded me for it. And my husband has me beat hands down on this. When he left his last job (he had been with that company for 11 years) he had FIVE MONTHS of sick leave built up - and he got paid for it too.

Good luck and thanks - you made my day.

 

[Kathryn]

Who is John Galt?

 

[blackout]

If you want to keep your job,
it's generally a good idea to DO IT well.

This has nothing to do with "virtue".
Just common sense.

And if you really hate your job
start looking for another one.
This can be sh*t hard these days though, I know.
But still it's better to pour your energy into finding something new,
than sit powerlessly hating 40 hours of your week,
and then bringing that major life disapointment home as well.
Besides paying the bills,
we all need the hope of a TRULY better and more meaning-full existence.
(except of course the minority who have sucessfully merged
personal satisfaction/talent/expression with bill paying)

The REAL insult however,
as I've stated before,
is when you give your all working 2 plus jobs,
and still can't freikin pay your bills.

I find THAT, both appalling ... and depressing.

 

[Alceste]

Hooray for Kathryn!
Compare this to Alceste who wrote...

"Every other conventional job I've ever had has not been worth working hard at. ******** paper pushing nonsense of no value to anyone but the owner/s of the company."

...as she posts to this forum every day from work.

As an employer is it any wonder I'm looking for Kathryns and not Alcestes? Oh the injustice of it all!

Jackytar

LOL - you'd better explain that to my employers. They can't get enough of me. Every job I take, they beg, plead and bribe me to stay. I'm now on the third month of a "three day contract" and somebody came and stuck a gold name plate on my cubicle today. They even took pains to get the spelling right. You should look for smart, lazy people, Jacky, they will always find a way to do things in an hour that take your "Kathryns" a week or more.

 

[Sunstone]

Who is John Galt?

Wasn't he a one-dimensional character in a popular novel written by a person her friend William F. Buckley described as "a frightened little woman"?

 

[Kathryn]

LOL - you'd better explain that to my employers. They can't get enough of me. Every job I take, they beg, plead and bribe me to stay. I'm now on the third fourth of a "three day contract" and somebody came and stuck a gold name plate on my cubicle today. They even took pains to get the spelling right. You should look for smart, lazy people, Jacky, they will always find a way to do things in an hour that take your "Kathryns" a week or more.

Alceste, I don't have any first hand knowledge of you, your work ethic or your skills, and you don't have any first hand knowledge of mine. By using parentheses, I am assuming you're using my name as a generalization rather than making this personal, so I'll stick with that approach myself.

I don't know why you would assume that since the "Kathryns" of the world work hard on the clock, don't take sick days when they're not sick, and stay off their cell phone and personal email while they're being paid by someone else to work, this makes them less efficient on the job. I'm having a really hard time following this "Alceste" line of reasoning.

News flash - the "Kathryns" of the world are both smart AND hardworking - which is a very desirable combination. The "Kathryns" generally work circles around the "Alcestes." "Kathryns" suit up and show up, professionally attired, wide awake and energized, and they pour their considerable skills into every minute of their work day. They enjoy learning new skills, and they particularly enjoy a challenge. They are solutions and action oriented. They are so driven to exceed their managers' and customers' expectations that they are suprised to realize sometimes, around 3:30 pm, that they haven't had lunch yet. What's a quota? That was some weekly goal that they surpassed, oh, about Tuesday at 2 pm...

You know, as a corporate trainer, one of my training seminars for HR professionals was called "Generations." This class explored the challenges of managing the different generations that are within our workforce today. Most of the managers I trained were in their 40s and 50s - the Baby Boomer generation. As you can see by my profile, I am also in that generation.

The baby boomer generation is the largest generation ever born in this country. As children, we went to school in classrooms of sometimes 35+ kids. When we entered the workforce, competition for the limited jobs was fierce. We learned early on that in order to reach our goals, we had to be one step ahead of the competition. If we wanted that promotion, and so did five other people, we better work harder than the other five in order to be noticed.

The generation of 30 somethings (and to some extent, 20 somethings) in the US today is the smallest generation ever born in this country. Consequently, competition for jobs hasn't been nearly as fierce - in fact, until recently, there haven't been enough good people to fill the available jobs - jobs and companies created, by the way, largely by the Baby Boomer generation. Since manpower has been in such high demand, workers soon realized that they didn't have to be on time, be diligent, perform excellently on the job. Basically, in order to keep their job, they had to be...well, breathing. Since the balance of power was disturbed, workers became more demanding of benefits, while less demanding of themselves personally - and companies had to provide more and put up with more in order to keep a full workforce in place.

It will be interesting to see how a lackluster work ethic plays out during a time of high unemployment and record layoffs. I have a feeling that many "Alcestes" are in for a rude awakening.

 

[Kathryn]

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go to work. My husband already left, wearing his coveralls and work boots, in the pouring rain on a Friday...wow, it sure would be nice to call in sick today...

Nyahhh...once I get there (on time), I'll enjoy myself. It's customer appreciation day - and that's always fun!

Peace out!

 

[Magic Man]

Not to brag, but I will say this - I have never gone one minute, let alone half a day, without a job - and a backup offer in my pocket. Neither has my husband, who is the hardest working man I know. With the economy going in the crapper as we speak, this could well change, but I'd be willing to bet we're the ones who turn out the lights.

What does that have to do with working hard? I guarantee you I'm a hard worker, and I've lost 4 jobs in my relatively short working career. I won't go into any details, since it would take way too long, but I didn't lose any of them because I don't work hard. I lost my last one when I got laid off simply because I was the newest member of the team. You can work hard and still be jobless for certain short or even long periods of time.

The idea of texting, IMing or even checking my personal email at work is ANATHEMA to me - that's not what I'm getting paid to do. The flip side of that is WHEN I AM OFF, I'M OFF and with my family. Call me old fashioned but it's worked well for me and my employers have always appreciated it, and rewarded me for it. And my husband has me beat hands down on this. When he left his last job (he had been with that company for 11 years) he had FIVE MONTHS of sick leave built up - and he got paid for it too.

Again, that's great, but it doesn't have much to do with working hard. I haven't had a boss in the past few years who didn't check his personal e-mail or phone every day. It's not OK because everyone does it, but it is OK because it doesn't really take away from job performance, as long as you do it reasonably. This is a case, to me, of taking it a little far. I don't know an employer who actually minds employees checking personal stuff like this, as long as it only take maybe a half-hour out of their total day.

And as far as the sick leave, I've only ever called out of work 3 times in the last 11 years. I'm sure others have me beat, but it can't be by much, and the point is I know about dependability and hard work.

 

[Alceste]

Alceste, I don't have any first hand knowledge of you, your work ethic or your skills, and you don't have any first hand knowledge of mine. By using parentheses, I am assuming you're using my name as a generalization rather than making this personal, so I'll stick with that approach myself.

I meant it only in response to Jacky doing the same, that's all. No offense meant. Truth be told, he'd probably be lucky to get either of us, but there's no chance of that since we're always employed - you because of your hard work and "excellence" and me because of my efficiency, the speed at which I pick things up, and the quality of my work. Those are the types comments I've had from all my employers, anyway. That kind of thing is why they make with the bribes to get me to stay and put name plates on my cubicle. It doesn't matter what I wear, whose *** I kiss, or whether I'm really sick when I call in to say I can't make it to work.

I have a feeling that many "Alcestes" are in for a rude awakening.

:biglaugh: I don't think so. For one thing, there is only one of me. For another, I'm already awake.

 

[Jackytar]

It will be interesting to see how a lackluster work ethic plays out during a time of high unemployment and record layoffs.

Great comments, Kathryn.

I'm not a religious person but as I grow older and, hopefully, wiser, I've come to realize that religious teachings contain much that is important and universal. Moderation. Family. Charity. Hard work. Humility. Time-tested wisdom passed down through the ages, gleaned from and elevated by the combined experiences of many lifetimes.

It was unfortunate and all-to-typical that I never internalized these lessons in my youth. Not from lack of exposure. My father, who died a year ago at the age of 90, personified these characteristics and valued personal integrity above all else. He would observe my errant ways and say calmly "The older you get, the smarter I will seem." He was right. And I am eternally grateful to have had him as a role model, and I feel his presence in all of my thoughts and actions today. When Tom Brokov coined the term "The Greatest Generation" I knew exactly what he meant.

So I like to think that all this is not lost on today's youth. I hope I'm right. Because the cynical side of me sees the younger generation as the spoiled child of a self-made millionaire, with no appreciation for what it took to get to where we are today. Hard work. Selflessness. Modesty. Patience. Education. Ambition. And like that spoiled child, full of entitlement, devoid of historical perspective, and destined to squander it all away. This is why we continually see emerging leaders in business and society more likely than not to have come from humble beginnings. They have that "fire in the belly" and know what it takes to succeed.

America has been gorging on this very sense of entitlement. That giant homes and Disney vacations are a birthright, regardless of occupation, income and effort. I continually remind the younger folks at work that they don't own these things. That their SUV with all the option boxes checked is not getting up every morning to work and pay for them. Seems to me that it owns you. I don't lecture them, they're not interested. I say "Spend less than you earn - always", leave it at that and hope it sinks in eventually.

Of course, all of this was fueled by easy credit, itself fueled by falsely inflated asset values (stock market, real estate, potential earnings). Those of us with a historical perspective knew intrinsically that something was amiss. That wealth is not created out of thin air, for the homeowner or the CEO or the hedge fund manager. That economic fundamentals are not some quaint "outdated" notion.

Jackytar

 

[Jackytar]

LOL - you'd better explain that to my employers. They can't get enough of me. Every job I take, they beg, plead and bribe me to stay. I'm now on the third fourth of a "three day contract" and somebody came and stuck a gold name plate on my cubicle today. They even took pains to get the spelling right. You should look for smart, lazy people, Jacky, they will always find a way to do things in an hour that take your "Kathryns" a week or more.

What impresses them the most? Your humility or your contempt for them?

Jacky

 

[Alceste]

What impresses them the most? Your humility or your contempt for them?

Jacky

My work.

BTW, knowing your strengths is not a lack of humility, and viewing your "superiors" as your equals is not contempt.

 

[Jackytar]

BTW, knowing your strengths is not a lack of humility, and viewing your "superiors" as your equals is not contempt.

I guess we all see ourselves differently than other do.

Jackytar

 

[Alceste]

I guess we all see ourselves differently than other do.

Jackytar

Not in this case. My comments about my work are entirely based on the comments of my employers, as well as the results of skills testing.

 

[Kathryn]

That kind of thing is why they make with the bribes to get me to stay and put name plates on my cubicle. It doesn't matter what I wear, whose *** I kiss, or whether I'm really sick when I call in to say I can't make it to work.



:biglaugh: I don't think so. For one thing, there is only one of me. For another, I'm already awake.

Couple of things - first of all - I was speaking generally, not specifically about you, Alceste. Just wanted to clarify that again.

Secondly - maybe you're a genius, a prodigy, an idiot savante - I don't know anything about the quality of your work. Maybe it's so superior to anything else out there that your employers are more than willing to put up with inconsistent attendance, insubordination, unprofessional work attire, etc - just to keep you in a cubicle with a gold name plate on it. If so - you are indeed a lucky girl and I salute your talents, if not your ethics.

However - my professional background includes 15 years of HR, hiring, managing, and staffing experience. I sincerely do hope that the quality of your work is beyond reproach, because as this economy continues in a downward spiral, layoffs and closures will continue to rise.

Especially in times like this, I would encourage any employee to do the best job they can, and to simultaneously be as honest, respectful, courteous, punctual, pleasant, professional, and prompt as possible. Your company may be faced with the unpleasant prospect of having to do a layoff, and if that time comes (and these layoffs often come in successive waves, cutting deeper each time), they will be looking for problem children to cut first.

Sounds like you have some experience in calling in "sick" when you're not. My husband just fired a guy for that very reason last week. Seems the safety manager ran into him in Walmart that afternoon, shopping with his kids. Just in time for a layoff - one less guy to have to pay unemployment benefits to - since he was fired rather than laid off.

 

[Jackytar]

Not in this case. My comments about my work are entirely based on the comments of my employers, as well as the results of skills testing.

I guess we all see ourselves differently than others do.

Jackytar

 

[Alceste]

Couple of things - first of all - I was speaking generally, not specifically about you, Alceste. Just wanted to clarify that again.

Secondly - maybe you're a genius...

Only if the IQ tests are to be believed.

Especially in times like this, I would encourage any employee to do the best job they can, and to simultaneously be as honest, respectful, courteous, punctual, pleasant, professional, and prompt as possible. Your company may be faced with the unpleasant prospect of having to do a layoff, and if that time comes (and these layoffs often come in successive waves, cutting deeper each time), they will be looking for problem children to cut first.

Who says I'm not honest, respectful, courteous, pleasant, professional and prompt? I only take flex-time jobs, so "punctuality" is not an issue. The only thing I'm lacking - the thing that seems upsetting to Jacky, is that I'm not an ***-kisser.

Sounds like you have some experience in calling in "sick" when you're not. My husband just fired a guy for that very reason last week.

No, I'm not a liar. When I can't come in, I just say I can't come in. If they want to know why, I tell them. Excuses are for cowards.

I think we're coming at this from different angles though. I don't care about being laid off, so I don't need to cultivate a fictitious personality or kiss anybody's butt for fear of losing my job. In fact, I change jobs regularly because I get bored easily and travel a lot. It never takes me more than a day or two to find work when I want it, mostly because of my skills and references, but also because I'm friendly and not too picky.

So, please don't worry on my behalf. My long term goals culminate in me living in a military tent in the wilderness with the man I love and growing, trapping or foraging all our own food. Job security is not a factor in my life - when the jobs run out, I'm heading for the woods.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I meant it only in response to Jacky doing the same, that's all. No offense meant. Truth be told, he'd probably be lucky to get either of us, but there's no chance of that since we're always employed - you because of your hard work and "excellence" and me because of my efficiency, the speed at which I pick things up, and the quality of my work. Those are the types comments I've had from all my employers, anyway. That kind of thing is why they make with the bribes to get me to stay and put name plates on my cubicle. It doesn't matter what I wear, whose *** I kiss, or whether I'm really sick when I call in to say I can't make it to work.

I completely identify with your post.

I'm extremely fast, efficient, and skilled at what I do. This is what I'm being paid well for - not simply my time, or for being in on time, or for working a full 8 hours every day. I take more liberties than some, but I've never had complaints because I get it done when it matters, I get it done fast, and I get it done right. I see my skills as my commodity, not my time. And every employer I've had, since being an adult, has seen it the same way.

I understand there are a variety of personality types, and, for some, strict adherence to rules and standards is perceived as part of the job, if not the most important component, and they simply can't understand why everyone doesn't see things the way they do. However, we all have different personalities, and different skills - what ends up being the most productive overall and ends up making the most satisfied and productive employee, isn't the same for everyone.