Is "hard work" a virtue?

[twinmama]

In other threads, advocates of free market capitalism have argued that the biggest danger of socialism or communism is that people in such a system might not work very hard.

Evidence from parts of Europe seems to support this -......
So is "hard work" a virtue? If so, why? Who first decided it was a virtue? Why do you think they did this?

Most importantly, who does it benefit most to train an entire nation of people to believe that working hard 24/7 is more important than sipping beaujolais and sampling excellent cheeses?

Work is somewhat necessary, but certainly not main purpose of life. Only if one's value is to get "more and more and more..." I guess working like crazy is good thing.

IMO most important is happiness, part of that happiness is your family, free time and work you like to do.

Here education is free so everyone can study what they want without worrying money. Starting amount of vacation is 4 weeks in summer+1 week in winter. Maternity leave is 1 year and 1 of the parents can stay home until child is 3. Overtime work is highly regulated and there are strickt limits how much one can do overtime. It is important also for the welfare of the worker to spend time with family.
On the other hand people here don't want "lots of stuff"(or fancy cheese), as long as you have sauna and clean nature - most are happy.
Yet people IMO are as hard and good workers as elsewhere, many Scandinavian products are known in the world. We have Nokia for example - it used to be a small factory that made rubberboots and car tires. Most of the luxury cruisers you have in Florida are made here and so on.

 

[Alceste]

I guess we all see ourselves differently than others do.

Jackytar

I guess we all just repeat ourselves when we run out of valid points to make.

 

[Alceste]

Work is somewhat necessary, but certainly not main purpose of life. Only if one's value is to get "more and more and more..." I guess working like crazy is good thing.

IMO most important is happiness, part of that happiness is your family, free time and work you like to do.

Here education is free so everyone can study what they want without worrying money. Starting amount of vacation is 4 weeks in summer+1 week in winter. Maternity leave is 1 year and 1 of the parents can stay home until child is 3. Overtime work is highly regulated and there are strickt limits how much one can do overtime. It is important also for the welfare of the worker to spend time with family.
On the other hand people here don't want "lots of stuff"(or fancy cheese), as long as you have sauna and clean nature - most are happy.
Yet people IMO are as hard and good workers as elsewhere, many Scandinavian products are known in the world. We have Nokia for example - it used to be a small factory that made rubberboots and car tires. Most of the luxury cruisers you have in Florida are made here and so on.

That sounds so sane, twinmama. Thanks for sharing it. I'd like to see Finland sometime. I have friends in Denmark I intend to visit in the not too distant future. Maybe I will tour Finland and Sweden when I go.

 

[Jackytar]

I completely identify with your post.

I'm extremely fast, efficient, and skilled at what I do. This is what I'm being paid well for - not simply my time, or for being in on time, or for working a full 8 hours every day. I take more liberties than some, but I've never had complaints because I get it done when it matters, I get it done fast, and I get it done right. I see my skills as my commodity, not my time. And every employer I've had, since being an adult, has seen it the same way.

I understand there are a variety of personality types, and, for some, strict adherence to rules and standards is perceived as part of the job, if not the most important component, and they simply can't understand why everyone doesn't see things the way they do. However, we all have different personalities, and different skills - what ends up being the most productive overall and ends up making the most satisfied and productive employee, isn't the same for everyone.

One of our most valued employees works from home on a computer and has absolute flexibility of hours. She has a few essential tasks to perform - billing, payroll, bookkeeping, banking and some HR duties - and she does an outstanding job. We could care less when or how much she works. She has young children and loves the flexible hours. And, incidentally, she has no secondary education. All self-taught. A very bright young lady who was off the rails in her personal life when she came to us. We saw her potential, we helped her through some changes and today she is loyal to us and we compensate her very well.

It is to her absolute credit and benefit that she has the personality to perform her duties completely unsupervised. We pay her for her work output. For most of our employees, however, reliability and diligence to work rules is essential for our business to operate. This is not something we impose out of a dogmatic adherence to some protestant work ethic. My job outside of the business is the same. I relieve somebody and somebody relieves me. If my relief does not show up, I literally can't leave. This is not a "perception" that I have. Neither do I see a strict adherence, or, more precisely, a good-faithed effort to comply with other workplace rules a matter of "personality types". They are part of the job that I'm being paid for no matter how I may personally feel about them. How would you feel if your employer applied the same degree of unnegotiated flexibility to your paycheck? You know, we had a bad quarter. Sorry. What? You don't understand why we see things differently than you do?

Jackytar

 

[Jackytar]

Work is somewhat necessary, but certainly not main purpose of life. Only if one's value is to get "more and more and more..." I guess working like crazy is good thing.

IMO most important is happiness, part of that happiness is your family, free time and work you like to do.

Here education is free so everyone can study what they want without worrying money. Starting amount of vacation is 4 weeks in summer+1 week in winter. Maternity leave is 1 year and 1 of the parents can stay home until child is 3. Overtime work is highly regulated and there are strickt limits how much one can do overtime. It is important also for the welfare of the worker to spend time with family.
On the other hand people here don't want "lots of stuff"(or fancy cheese), as long as you have sauna and clean nature - most are happy.
Yet people IMO are as hard and good workers as elsewhere, many Scandinavian products are known in the world. We have Nokia for example - it used to be a small factory that made rubberboots and car tires. Most of the luxury cruisers you have in Florida are made here and so on.

What is true for Finland is true for all western economies - the wealth is generated by the private sector. The social benefits are funded by taxing the private sector. That education is not "free" <groan>. Finland did not pull itself out of the economic hole it was in until it privatized it's industries and embraced globalization - something the trade unions fought every inch of the way. But they are still strong, and the reason you can't afford fancy cheese. Anybody can choose to live modestly, and value time off. I do. My choice.

Jackytar

 

[Alceste]

What is true for Finland is true for all western economies - the wealth is generated by the private sector. The social benefits are funded by taxing the private sector. That education is not "free" <groan>. Finland did not pull itself out of the economic hole it was in until it privatized it's industries and embraced globalization - something the trade unions fought every inch of the way. But they are still strong, and the reason you can't afford fancy cheese. Anybody can choose to live modestly, and value time off. I do. My choice.

Jackytar

Jacky, even the peasant cheese in Europe is "fancy" compared to American cheese.

 

[Kathryn]

Well, I lived in Europe for several years and still have some friends who live there. I love many things about Europe, especially Germany and the Czech Republic.

However, without exception, my European friends find the tax burden in their countries oppressive. They despise the healthcare systems and those who can afford to leave their countries to travel to the US and pay out of pocket if they are seriously ill. Several European friends of mine have been trying to legally and permanently relocate to the US for several years without success, even though they are highly educated professionals in their fields. They are dismayed at the direction our system is headed.

My German friends will never be able to afford to own their own home. Their biggest possession will probably always be their vehicle. You're right - they don't seem to be materialistic - it wouldn't do them any good anyway, because even if they could afford to buy lots of shiny toys or a closet full of clothes, they wouldn't have the room to store them.

I love to visit them - even though there's no room for me to stay at their place. I love the ambience of the villages, great food, history, etc. I wish I could visit more often in fact.

But they love to visit us as well, and they marvel at our place - the room we have, the size of the home (we're middle class), the comparatively low taxes, and our capitalist system (what's left of it). They are fascinated with the diversity they see everywhere - from housing to industry to food, even religions. And they gorge themselves on Tex Mex! (Like I gorge myself on brot und kase when I'm visiting them!)

As an American living in Europe, I was constantly struck by the marked LACK of what I was used to when it came to the concept of customer service. Limited hours, long stretches of time in the middle of the day when everything was basically shut down, and a general attitude of "this is the product/service and you can like it or lump it. It is what it is." However, I will say that the quality of the products in Europe is generally very high.

Once you've earned the friendship of a naturally reserved European, you've probably got a friend for life. I value those friendships.

One of my Belgian friends is in upper management at an international bank in Belgium. On a recent visit to the States, he told us that their employee benefits packages are crippling their budget and the budgets of their business partners. He thinks that a happy medium would be somewhere between where the US average is, and the European average. I agree with him.

American cheese sucks. But I would prefer to eat American deli cheese sitting on my deck looking over our pasture than I would the finest cheese in Europe if it meant that I would never own an acre of land.

 

[Jackytar]

Jacky, even the peasant cheese in Europe is "fancy" compared to American cheese.

I'd like to take this opportunity to end all this on a note of agreement.

Jackytar

 

[Alceste]

Yes, well, Kathryn, if your friends are the upper management of Belgian banks, I'm sorry to tell you they're not representative of the European population in general.

I'm looking forward to getting my Englishman over to Canada to enjoy the elbow room and relatively low cost of living (without sacrificing the excellent universal health care we both enjoy in our home countries), but it would be foolish to assert that the reason things are easier here is because of our system of government and economics - or our work ethic and ideals - are superior to those of the English. We have fewer people per square kilometer - that's all. It's a simple case of supply and demand.

 

[Alceste]

I completely identify with your post.

I'm extremely fast, efficient, and skilled at what I do. This is what I'm being paid well for - not simply my time, or for being in on time, or for working a full 8 hours every day. I take more liberties than some, but I've never had complaints because I get it done when it matters, I get it done fast, and I get it done right. I see my skills as my commodity, not my time. And every employer I've had, since being an adult, has seen it the same way.

I understand there are a variety of personality types, and, for some, strict adherence to rules and standards is perceived as part of the job, if not the most important component, and they simply can't understand why everyone doesn't see things the way they do. However, we all have different personalities, and different skills - what ends up being the most productive overall and ends up making the most satisfied and productive employee, isn't the same for everyone.

Sounds like we're cut from the same cloth. To be honest, I've always wanted to have a job where I could just go home when my work is done. I wouldn't be spending a third of every day surfing the internet at work if that was the case. The tragic fact is that the people I'm working for have never been able to find enough for me to do. They give me something that they think takes days to complete, and half an hour later it's done and I'm back asking for more. After a while I just stop asking, because I hate "busy work", which is often what it comes down to when they run out of ideas.

 

[Kathryn]

.

So, please don't worry on my behalf. My long term goals culminate in me living in a military tent in the wilderness with the man I love and growing, trapping or foraging all our own food. Job security is not a factor in my life - when the jobs run out, I'm heading for the woods.

LOL, I am not worried about you. If your goals are living in a tent in the wilderness and foraging for food, I am sure you're headed happily in that direction. You seem goal oriented. If that lifestyle makes you happy, more power to ya, sister! And I mean that sincerely.

Intelligent people see work resulting in money that helps them reach their personal goals. So it's not about MONEY per se - it's about personal ambitions. Personally, I don't want to EVER live in a tent, and I pray to God that I never have to forage for food. However, if I had to, I certainly could. I just prefer not to.

Having never been without a job and a backup, job security is not a big issue with me either - on that we can agree. However, a consistent income IS a big issue for me. I need that income so that I can buy a plane ticket whenever I want to go see one of my four grown kids or six grandchildren - or buy my parents a special (and expensive) gift for their fiftieth anniversary to show them how much I appreciate their relationship. Or to take my youngest son and his buddy on a fantastic vacation without having to put anything on a credit card. Or to save for his college. Or to drive a dependable car - or pay cash for a new septic system (lemme tell you, those septic systems are pretty necessary in my book).

Some might call me materialistic, but my husband and I work (both hard and smart) to provide a healthy, comfortable, and invigorating lifestyle for our large family. This brings us great joy. We don't work for things that are status oriented - we work for the individuals we love. And I believe they appreciate it. Our lives overflow with love.

If this means that I have to show up for work on time, work 45 or so hours a week, and provide excellent service to my clients while showing common respect to my manager and following company policy, it seems a small price to pay for the lifestyle my income provides my family.

To each his own.

 

[Kathryn]

What is true for Finland is true for all western economies - the wealth is generated by the private sector. The social benefits are funded by taxing the private sector. That education is not "free" <groan>. Finland did not pull itself out of the economic hole it was in until it privatized it's industries and embraced globalization - something the trade unions fought every inch of the way. But they are still strong, and the reason you can't afford fancy cheese. Anybody can choose to live modestly, and value time off. I do. My choice.

Jackytar

A voice of sanity in a sea of entitlement.

 

[Kathryn]

Yes, well, Kathryn, if your friends are the upper management of Belgian banks, I'm sorry to tell you they're not representative of the European population in general.

.

That's just one set of friends. The others are the owner of a bed and breakfast, a college student, and a guy who refinishes and repairs furniture and antiques.

Definitely middle class. And the guy in upper management? He's the one who marvels at the fact that we own acreage - when he can only afford a 2000 square foot home on a quarter of an acre. Though he is definitely wealthy by the standards of Belgians. Only the wealthy can afford a separate home with a little piece of land there. He's one of the ones who is trying so desperately to move his family to the US.

 

[Alceste]

However, a consistent income IS a big issue for me. I need that income so that I can buy a plane ticket whenever I want to go see one of my four grown kids or six grandchildren - or buy my parents a special (and expensive) gift for their fiftieth anniversary to show them how much I appreciate their relationship. Or to take my youngest son and his buddy on a fantastic vacation without having to put anything on a credit card. Or to save for his college. Or to drive a dependable car - or pay cash for a new septic system (lemme tell you, those septic systems are pretty necessary in my book).

Some might call me materialistic, but my husband and I work (both hard and smart) to provide a healthy, comfortable, and invigorating lifestyle for our large family. This brings us great joy. We don't work for things that are status oriented - we work for the individuals we love. And I believe they appreciate it. Our lives overflow with love.

If this means that I have to show up for work on time, work 45 or so hours a week, and provide excellent service to my clients while showing common respect to my manager and following company policy, it seems a small price to pay for the lifestyle my income provides my family.

To each his own.

Yep, to each their own. I haven't got any kids, and my family is very satisfied with their hand-made gifts. I travel a lot, so at least we have one thing in common.

 

[Alceste]

A voice of sanity in a sea of entitlement.

Two voices of faintly nauseating sycophantic mutual flattery and back-patting in a sea of otherwise intelligent conversation.

 

[Magic Man]

Two voices of faintly nauseating sycophantic mutual flattery and back-patting in a sea of otherwise intelligent conversation.

Faintly?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Sounds like we're cut from the same cloth. To be honest, I've always wanted to have a job where I could just go home when my work is done. I wouldn't be spending a third of every day surfing the internet at work if that was the case. The tragic fact is that the people I'm working for have never been able to find enough for me to do. They give me something that they think takes days to complete, and half an hour later it's done and I'm back asking for more. After a while I just stop asking, because I hate "busy work", which is often what it comes down to when they run out of ideas.

No doubt. The fact of the matter is if I worked at full capacity all the time, I would work myself right out of a job in no time. Unfortunately, when you work "below" people who aren't as fast, efficient, and productive as you, there's no way they can utilize you to your full potential anyway.

 

[The Great Architect]

Work for the sake of work is NOT virtuous. Or even bright. lol.

Wow, that's cool. I have a high work ethic. I like to be proud of the effort I put into whatever I do.

 

[Sunstone]

I think hard work will come to be seen as less of a virtue as more people come to see how their hard work is not getting them ahead or allowing them to achieve their goals.

It will still take some time for that to become apparent to large numbers of people. But that seems to me what's going to happen because in many countries -- including the US -- productivity is on the rise but real wages are in decline, and the middle class is shrinking. The cliche that expresses what's going on is "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer". Even though that's a cliche it is happening, and you cannot have a system like that go on forever without it demoralizing most people.

 

[Kathryn]

Yep, to each their own. I haven't got any kids, and my family is very satisfied with their hand-made gifts. I travel a lot, so at least we have one thing in common.

Seems we can agree on something else too - I enjoy giving handmade gifts to family as well. In fact, the expensive gift for my parents' 50th anniversary was a scrapbook that I made for them. By the time I was finished, it had cost over $400 and had taken over 30 hours of my time to put it together! Sheeze, how can people afford this scrapbooking hobby?????? I scanned, then touched up, then printed and then cropped over 200 family photos!!! My entire dining room was a huge mess for two weeks!

I was so sick of looking at family pictures by the time I was done with that thing.

My kids each wrote a poem or letter to my parents and we put those in there as well.

But it was worth every bit of that investment of time and money when we gave it to my mom and dad. They both laughed and cried as they sat together and flipped the pages. My only regret is that I didn't video them then.