Is "hard work" a virtue?

[Kathryn]

If you think of taxes as money you don't see anyway, then it's perfectly logical to see the things it gives you as free.

No - it's not LOGICAL, it's called OBLIVIOUS TO THE FACTS. Anyone living in a Scandinavian country who actually believes that they only pay 23% of their income in taxes is living with their head buried in the sand.

She hasn't added in the church taxes, social security taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, etc. that she's also paying.

ALL of us pay more taxes than we probably realize for that matter.

Didn't yore mama tell you, boy - there ain't no free lunch, baby.

 

[Sunstone]

I can't think of a SINGLE scientific method we can apply...

Do you know of a generally more accurate or more reliable way of arriving at truths than science?

I don't guess you give any credibility to the basic practice of most cultures since the beginning of time of admiring and honoring accomplishments, both great and small.

If you can show how anything I said would logically entail the words you're trying to put into my mouth, please do so. Otherwise, I'm going to suspect you have a quaint fondness for straw men arguments.

Look, Kathryn, hard work is not always evil, but hard work merely for the sake of hard work does indeed seem to be a bit foolish because it does not seem to provide serious benefits to the worker. Unless I'm mistaken, you have advocated that hard work in itself has some special redeeming magic to it -- such as the power to build good character -- if (1) the worker gets an agreed upon wage for it and (2) the worker does a good job. If that's what you've advocated, then I disagree with you, and I think your position is shallow.

 

[Kathryn]

[

QUOTE]

Do you know of a generally more accurate or more reliable way of arriving at truths than science?

Science is one way to determine truth and validity, but it is not the only way we determine truths in our lives.

Look, Kathryn, hard work is not always evil, but hard work merely for the sake of hard work does indeed seem to be a bit foolish because it does not seem to provide serious benefits to the worker.

I never said or implied otherwise. In fact, I believe I've clarified my position to spefically DISCLUDE hard work merely for the sake of hard work - which would fall into the categories of 1) slavery, 2) punishment, 3) oppression, and 4) insanity. Probably more if I sat here and really thought about it.

Unless I'm mistaken, you have advocated that hard work in itself has some special redeeming magic to it -- such as the power to build good character -- if (1) the worker gets an agreed upon wage for it and (2) the worker does a good job. If that's what you've advocated, then I disagree with you, and I think your position is shallow.

[/QUOTE]

Nope, no magic to hard work - I've never said or implied that. By the way, lots of hard work earns no money. For instance, my husband and I worked hard all day yesterday building a fence. Not only did we not earn any money - this fence actually cost us money - and time - and energy. Blood, sweat but no tears (yet). And guess what - we're building one heck of a fine fence. It's so square and so solid, it's practically a work of art. Several times during the long, hot day, we stepped back from the fence together and looked at it with great satisfaction and said to each other, "Dang, that looks good."

We're building something excellent together, side by side, cooperating, coordinating - it's teamwork. We're navigating tricky waters - anyone whose tried to tackle a big project with their spouse can tell you that much. Just to be able to work together all day in the heat requires both of us to use the best of our characters, to pull deep within ourselves for patience, kindness, submission at times, creativity, talent, etc. Everytime he doesn't snap at me for dropping the level, or I don't snap at him for accidently hitting me in the head with a board (gee, I hope it was an accident...), builds character within us.

When my grandmother was picking cotton out in that hot field, to help her parents put food on the table for four little brothers, every time she didn't complain, or rebel, or throw down that sack and say, "I didn't have four more kids, you did! It's not fair that I have to help put foods in their mouths when I'm 12 - I should be playing in the yard instead of working in the field!" - every time she DIDN'T do that, her inner character was strengthened.

It's not the wage, or the even the sweat, that makes an inner difference when it comes to hard work. It's the attitude that the individual applies to the job that strengthens and builds character.

 

[Magic Man]

<sigh>

Jackytar

Wow, great response. Not that I expected any kind of real response. I'm just glad you didn't take up more space with a long response that didn't actually say anything more than this anway.

So are you saying that having the strength of character to work hard to accomplish goals is good, and probably necessary to be successful?

I would say it's good, and I would say that many times it's necessary, although sometimes it's not.

No - it's not LOGICAL, it's called OBLIVIOUS TO THE FACTS. Anyone living in a Scandinavian country who actually believes that they only pay 23% of their income in taxes is living with their head buried in the sand.

First, this has nothing to do with the comment it was in response to. It is logical to think of tax money as being money that's gone anyway, so any services it gets you are free. That makes perfect sense. Sure, technically they're not free, but that's just a different angle from which to view the situation.

Now, last time I checked 6+17=23. That means that twinmama takes home 23% of her pay. Sure, there are other taxes, just as there are here. However, I don't tend to take gas taxes, as an example, into account when determining how much I make after taxes.

She hasn't added in the church taxes, social security taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, etc. that she's also paying.

OK, so add in the church tax. That's an extra 1%. As far as the rest of that stuff, why would she take that into account? Since when do you take sales tax or property tax into account when determining how much you make after taxes? I know I don't.

ALL of us pay more taxes than we probably realize for that matter.

Didn't yore mama tell you, boy - there ain't no free lunch, baby.

And? What's the point? For that matter, what's the point of attempting to prove twinmama wrong on this very particular point? Her entire point was that she has no problem paying the taxes that she does. She even said she wouldn't mind paying more taxes, and all because she actually sees a good return on her money. So, why don't you focus on the real point, rather than what you perceive to be a mistake?

 

[Magic Man]

Science is one way to determine truth and validity, but it is not the only way we determine truths in our lives.

How else do we do it, then?

 

[Jackytar]

Wow, great response. Not that I expected any kind of real response. I'm just glad you didn't take up more space with a long response that didn't actually say anything more than this anway.

mball, I'm sorry, but I truly am at a loss to respond to your posts. All I see is platitude - condescension - repeat. I can't find any decent argument to sink my teeth in.

You think I "can't be wrong". Truth is, about ten years ago I would have been on the other side of this debate. But I kept losing arguments to Libertarians.

Jackytar

 

[Kurgan]

[

Science is one way to determine truth and validity, but it is not the only way we determine truths in our lives.

Nope, no magic to hard work - I've never said or implied that. By the way, lots of hard work earns no money. For instance, my husband and I worked hard all day yesterday building a fence. Not only did we not earn any money - this fence actually cost us money - and time - and energy. Blood, sweat but no tears (yet). And guess what - we're building one heck of a fine fence. It's so square and so solid, it's practically a work of art. Several times during the long, hot day, we stepped back from the fence together and looked at it with great satisfaction and said to each other, "Dang, that looks good."

We're building something excellent together, side by side, cooperating, coordinating - it's teamwork. We're navigating tricky waters - anyone whose tried to tackle a big project with their spouse can tell you that much. Just to be able to work together all day in the heat requires both of us to use the best of our characters, to pull deep within ourselves for patience, kindness, submission at times, creativity, talent, etc. Everytime he doesn't snap at me for dropping the level, or I don't snap at him for accidently hitting me in the head with a board (gee, I hope it was an accident...), builds character within us.

When my grandmother was picking cotton out in that hot field, to help her parents put food on the table for four little brothers, every time she didn't complain, or rebel, or throw down that sack and say, "I didn't have four more kids, you did! It's not fair that I have to help put foods in their mouths when I'm 12 - I should be playing in the yard instead of working in the field!" - every time she DIDN'T do that, her inner character was strengthened.

It's not the wage, or the even the sweat, that makes an inner difference when it comes to hard work. It's the attitude that the individual applies to the job that strengthens and builds character.[/quote]

I think people are getting wrapped around the axel here on "nose to the stone" industrial labor. That is a material concept and working for a wage is not necessarily a virtue. Work in this context is a means to support your family and how well you do that, can be vitrous. It is not good to let your family go without because you won't work hard.

I think what Kathryn was talking about is the "work etheic". To understand this we need to go to middle America and see farmers and ranchers. Their wealth and production is directly poportional to their work ethic (they get out what they put in)When a man gets up at dawn and works foutrteen hours a day, he is a much better man than one that gets up at noon and muddles along. There is sort a euphoric glory in hard work and I believe it is definitely a virtue!!! I have also seen this great feeling of pride of accomplishment in the industrial field among steel workers, miners and railroad men. Yes work is a virtue and is rewarding in many ways that envolve a paycheck.

The guy that gets up at noon ends up as the town drunk or the local barkeep.

 

[Kurgan]

I forgot to proof read the last sentence, what I ment to say is; "Yes work is a virtue and is rewarding in many other than involving a paycheck. I do get high when I do things like help load six tractor trailer of bailed hay in one day. I am so tired I can't move but I feel like dancing.

 

[blackout]

I learned something new today.

The airline crash in upstate NY not long ago,
the co pilot on that flight was paid only 17,000 a year.
She actually had to waitress on the side to pay her bills.
20,000 ish is the typical pay of (non captain) co-pilots
(who don't have extra flights.. which now days is no one)

I find this... I ... just cannot find words.
aggregious?

This economy is coming to a crashing halt real soon.
And those of you who are still lucky enough to have right now,
won't be singing your hard work praises very much longer I fear.

Not that I wish ruin on anyone mind you.
But if no one can afford anything
working hard 80 hour weeks
two jobs with no rest,
and still basic bills unpaid...

who do you think is going to pay for your goods and services?

Sure, some of you will do better, due to the nature of your particular service...
but do not EVER think that the rest of are in the hole because we're not "working hard enough".

Just as parents are opting out of music lessons,
I cannot squeak out gymnastics for my son anymore.
When people cannot afford my service,
I then cannot afford theirs.

When there IS no work to be had,
it's kind of hard to "work hard". duh.

yes, it ****** me off.

 

[blackout]

I learned something new today.

The airline crash in upstate NY not long ago,
the co pilot on that flight was paid only 17,000 a year.
She actually had to waitress on the side to pay her bills.
20,000 ish is the typical pay of (non captain) co-pilots
(who don't have extra flights.. which now days is no one)

I find this... I ... just cannot find words.
aggregious?

..........................

I think "appalling" was the word I was looking for.

 

[Jackytar]

I learned something new today.

The airline crash in upstate NY not long ago,
the co pilot on that flight was paid only 17,000 a year.
She actually had to waitress on the side to pay her bills.
20,000 ish is the typical pay of (non captain) co-pilots
(who don't have extra flights.. which now days is no one)

I find this... I ... just cannot find words.


aggregious?

I was in Newark waiting on a flight headed to Toronto that evening. Same airline, same model aircraft, going in the same direction. That flight departed 3 gates up from mine. As the weather was bad and there were delays all around everybody was waiting for longer than expected. I seen those people waiting for that flight as I strolled around killing time. Probably passed by and made eye contact with many of them, or stood next to one of them in the bookstore.

After that flight left they started cancelling flights one after another. We didn't know what had happened. The CNN that was broadcast in the terminal was not a live feed. Then rumours started circulating about the crash from people with Internet connections and getting phone calls but initial details were scant. For a while I thought it was the plane we were waiting on that crashed. But most folks knew nothing about any of this and they were getting very frustrated - there would be no more flights that night and everybody was storming the counters to book flights the next day and generally abuse the airline staff who, I noticed, were being very low key. Finally I guess they got permission and they made the announcement of what had happened. That was a Newark based crew on that plane. The flights were being cancelled because the other crews were too upset to fly. Every airline employee in that terminal knew that crew. It was something to see the expression change on every traveller's face all at once as we looked at each other. Everybody who were in those seats over there, and the entire crew, are dead.

I'm not a certified pilot but I have built and flown ultralight planes. I'm watching that story with keen interest. From the few details they are releasing it seems the mistake made by those pilots is something you learn on your first day of ground school.

Jackytar

 

[Sunstone]

I was in Newark waiting on a flight headed to Toronto that evening. Same airline, same model aircraft, going in the same direction. That flight departed 3 gates up from mine. As the weather was bad and there were delays all around everybody was waiting for longer than expected. I seen those people waiting for that flight as I strolled around killing time. Probably passed by and made eye contact with many of them, or stood next to one of them in the bookstore.

After that flight left they started cancelling flights one after another. We didn't know what had happened. The CNN that was broadcast in the terminal was not a live feed. Then rumours started circulating about the crash from people with Internet connections and getting phone calls but initial details were scant. For a while I thought it was the plane we were waiting on that crashed. But most folks knew nothing about any of this and they were getting very frustrated - there would be no more flights that night and everybody was storming the counters to book flights the next day and generally abuse the airline staff who, I noticed, were being very low key. Finally I guess they got permission and they made the announcement of what had happened. That was a Newark based crew on that plane. The flights were being cancelled because the other crews were too upset to fly. Every airline employee in that terminal knew that crew. It was something to see the expression change on every traveller's face all at once as we looked at each other. Everybody who were in those seats over there, and the entire crew, are dead.

I'm not a certified pilot but I have built and flown ultralight planes. I'm watching that story with keen interest. From the few details they are releasing it seems the mistake made by those pilots is something you learn on your first day of ground school.

Jackytar

I'm glad you weren't on that plane. I would miss you.

 

[blackout]

I was in Newark waiting on a flight headed to Toronto that evening. Same airline, same model aircraft, going in the same direction. That flight departed 3 gates up from mine. As the weather was bad and there were delays all around everybody was waiting for longer than expected. I seen those people waiting for that flight as I strolled around killing time. Probably passed by and made eye contact with many of them, or stood next to one of them in the bookstore.

After that flight left they started cancelling flights one after another. We didn't know what had happened. The CNN that was broadcast in the terminal was not a live feed. Then rumours started circulating about the crash from people with Internet connections and getting phone calls but initial details were scant. For a while I thought it was the plane we were waiting on that crashed. But most folks knew nothing about any of this and they were getting very frustrated - there would be no more flights that night and everybody was storming the counters to book flights the next day and generally abuse the airline staff who, I noticed, were being very low key. Finally I guess they got permission and they made the announcement of what had happened. That was a Newark based crew on that plane. The flights were being cancelled because the other crews were too upset to fly. Every airline employee in that terminal knew that crew. It was something to see the expression change on every traveller's face all at once as we looked at each other. Everybody who were in those seats over there, and the entire crew, are dead.

I'm not a certified pilot but I have built and flown ultralight planes. I'm watching that story with keen interest. From the few details they are releasing it seems the mistake made by those pilots is something you learn on your first day of ground school.

Jackytar

Very very sad Jacky.

I'm off to bed with a heavy heart... in general.

 

[blackout]

I'm glad you weren't on that plane. I would miss you.

No kidding. You just never know from day to day.

People on this forum like to sometimes say
"this" or "that" is "dangerous".
But life on this planet is dangerous.
and cruel.
Every last thing we do or don't do is potentially dangerous.
You just never know.

Sorry to go so far off topic... I'm very sad tonight.

 

[twinmama]

Church tax in Finland are for those who belong to the church. It covers the services church provides for it's members(weddings, funerals and so on). I don't belong to church so I don't pay it. Church also keeps up some non-religious services for people along with other organisations like Red cross and so on.

I don't know how you count but I know no one who would pay 41% taxes of his/hers salary. It is true that we, like all Scandinavian countries, have progressive taxing system. But...41%... My best friend is single,childless woman whose salary is 4100&#8364;/month. Her tax% is 27%.
I only lived a year in USA I admit but I did notice that people do pay taxes there too. I saw people, decent working families going bankcrupt because of sudden medical bills. Parents trying to save money for their children's education. People being sick because they did not have money for doctor or medicine.

What do I get for my tax money?
Good healthcare and dentalcare for my family.
Free education for my children, no matter if I choose public school or something like Waldorf school.
Free good lunches for my kids in school.
My kids are special needs and they both got speech therapy and occupasional therapy for 4 years - free. And goverment pays you extra if you have disabled kids, so during those for years we got 400&#8364;/month to cover any extra expencies.
Goverment also pays for children until they turn 17. So we get 200 &#8364;/month, every month.
If I need medication they are cheap since government pays part of the cost. Some medications are totally free.
If I am really sick and I get lot of bills due medication or anything else, everything that goes yearly over 500&#8364; is free.
By law every person(also child)has to have a certain amount of money/month for food, clothes and other basic needs. So if I got sick, disabled, unemployed government steps in to help with rent and other basic bills.
Here are just some examples.
And these services, all of them, are for everyone, rich or poor. So..if I had to pay that 41%, I would.

Unemployment rate has gone up this year due to the global situation. Same situation everywhere. Government is pouring money for adult education and support work so people stay in touch to the working world and when economy goes up again, we will have workers. Finland is going to face work shortage in 10-20 years, that indeed will be a big problem! Temporary rise on unemployment isn't.

Regards to robots, I watched a BBC document serie about the future of life and indeed researchers claim that by the time our grandchildren hit adulthood technology has gne so far that there is no need for such workers as bus drivers or cleaners. I have no idea if that is true or not, but it sure was interesting.

 

[Kathryn]

mball, I'm sorry, but I truly am at a loss to respond to your posts. All I see is platitude - condescension - repeat. I can't find any decent argument to sink my teeth in.

You think I "can't be wrong". Truth is, about ten years ago I would have been on the other side of this debate. But I kept losing arguments to Libertarians.

Jackytar

I rarely respond to mball's posts - I prefer to respond to people who seem, oh, I don't know - more positively interactive.

 

[Magic Man]

mball, I'm sorry, but I truly am at a loss to respond to your posts. All I see is platitude - condescension - repeat. I can't find any decent argument to sink my teeth in.

You think I "can't be wrong". Truth is, about ten years ago I would have been on the other side of this debate. But I kept losing arguments to Libertarians.

Jackytar

]I rarely respond to mball's posts - I prefer to respond to people who seem, oh, I don't know - more positively interactive.

Yeah, sorry, guys. I didn't mean to actually make you think. I'll try not to do that in the future. I'll try to stay in the little box you have made for liberals. My bad.

I'll have to remember this tactic in the future, in case someone comes up with arguments that I have no good response to. Actually, scratch that. I'm sure I can find something at least better than this.

 

[Jackytar]

No kidding. You just never know from day to day.

UV - You're too sweet to have noticed that Sunstone was wishing me dead.

BTW - that young lady's salary was closer to 50G for full time work. She just wasn't getting many hours.

Jackytar

 

[Sunstone]

UV - You're too sweet to have noticed that Sunstone was wishing me dead.

That's not true! I meant that sincerely. You and I seldom agree, but I enjoy reading your posts because -- hopelessly misguided though you are -- your posts are thoughtful, honest, and occasionally informative.

 

[Jackytar]

That's not true! I meant that sincerely. You and I seldom agree, but I enjoy reading your posts because -- hopelessly misguided though you are -- your posts are thoughtful, honest, and occasionally informative.

Oops. Sorry. <blush> Atonement frubals and embarrassed smiley face.

Jackytar