Is "hard work" a virtue?

[Kathryn]

I think hard work will come to be seen as less of a virtue as more people come to see how their hard work is not getting them ahead or allowing them to achieve their goals.

It will still take some time for that to become apparent to large numbers of people. But that seems to me what's going to happen because in many countries -- including the US -- productivity is on the rise but real wages are in decline, and the middle class is shrinking. The cliche that expresses what's going on is "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer". Even though that's a cliche it is happening, and you cannot have a system like that go on forever without it demoralizing most people.

So what's your application, Sunstone? I mean, what do you think people should do? Slack off? Revolt? Storm the Bastille? Seriously, I want to know what you think the answer is to this.

I think from our perspective in the 21st century, we really don't even fully understand the concept of hard work. The vast majority of mankind through the centuries has had to toil and scrape and sweat just to eke out a bare existance - and look forward to burying 3 out of 6 kids before they were 10, and old age at 40. The very concept of two weeks of paid vacation or a mere 40 hour work week had never even occurred to them.

Yep, most of us are the descendents of dirt farmers, miners, blacksmiths, etc. who worked harder than any of us can imagine. And yet we complain about working 40 hours a week "for da man."

 

[Sunstone]

...what do you think people should do?

Unless people actually want a system in which the harder they work, the less they reap from their work, they certainly should take measures to reverse the trend of "the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer". That seems obvious, doesn't it?

Slack off? Revolt? Storm the Bastille? Seriously, I want to know what you think the answer is to this.

When was the last time a bloody revolution accomplished much? Americans don't need a bloody revolution -- at least not yet -- to reverse the trends that are already destroying (for most people) the rewards of work in this country.

What would probably do the job today are relatively minor changes. Changes such as making it easier to unionize, or laws that prohibited the sale of products in this country made with underpaid labor, and so forth. American workers are not going to see their real incomes rise anytime soon if they are forced to compete with workers making $83/year. There is no one big fix to the problem. Instead, there are many, many smaller fixes.

I think from our perspective in the 21st century, we really don't even fully understand the concept of hard work. The vast majority of mankind through the centuries has had to toil and scrape and sweat just to eke out a bare existance - and look forward to burying 3 out of 6 kids before they were 10, and old age at 40. The very concept of two weeks of paid vacation or a mere 40 hour work week had never even occurred to them.

Yep, most of us are the descendents of dirt farmers, miners, blacksmiths, etc. who worked harder than any of us can imagine. And yet we complain about working 40 hours a week "for da man."

What you say may be technically correct in some ways, but it suffers in -- at least -- two ways. First, many of our ancestors worked harder than any human should be asked to work and often suffered and even died young as a result -- read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair to get an idea of (1) how hard people worked, and (2) how closely their work resembled slave labor.

Second, the fact our ancestors worked harder than us logically says nothing about how hard someone should or ought to work.

That is, the second point holds true unless you are prepared to argue that humans should work as hard as they can work because work has some virtue or reward that justifies humans working as hard as they can work. Is that what you are arguing?

 

[Kathryn]

No - what I am saying is that I find it ironic that this generation of workers - who have probably never picked cotton or beat iron into submission - complains about how hard they are having to work - when our ancestors would have thought they'd died and gone to heaven if they'd had the opportunity to work under our conditions.

It's a matter of perspective and context.

 

[Sunstone]

No - what I am saying is that I find it ironic that this generation of workers - who have probably never picked cotton or beat iron into submission - complains about how hard they are having to work - when our ancestors would have thought they'd died and gone to heaven if they'd had the opportunity to work under our conditions.

It's a matter of perspective and context.

OK. I understand your point now. I think it's trivial but I understand it.

 

[Kathryn]

OH THANK YOU. I feel a lot better now that I'm understood. I was practically immobilized till you generously told me I was absolved!

The problem is that so many people are so IGNORANT of history. I think we are setting ourselves up for failure if we don't teach our children that sometimes you are just going to have to, simply put, WORK HARD. This particular character trait sure can come in handy sometimes.

I think tough times are ahead - some of us are already experiencing tough times economically. I think it's important to toughen up our kids so that they can better face their future. I guarantee you that the 20 years my grandmother spent picking cotton in the hot Arkansas sun actually made her a better person in the long run.

 

[twinmama]

That education is not "free" <groan>. Finland did not pull itself out of the economic hole it was in until it privatized it's industries and embraced globalization - something the trade unions fought every inch of the way. But they are still strong, and the reason you can't afford fancy cheese. Anybody can choose to live modestly, and value time off. I do. My choice.

Jackytar

Excuse me? Finland was one of the poorest countries in Europe after WWII. By the end of 1950's /early 60's we all ready were booming, both economically and in pov of health and education. And some companies were/are owned by government, some were/are owned by private sector. Trade unions have not been against globalisation in Finland. The thing they have been against is EU's efforts to try to weaken workers' benefits - here and in whole EU.

And yes, I concider education, healthcare and other benefits free. I don't know a country that survives without it's citizens paying taxes. The question is where the government put those taxes..where else shoulöd goverment put that money if not back to it's citizens?

I'm paying customer. I expect good service for my money. No matter what happens to me(sickness, death....)my children won't go hungry or homeless, they are not left without one of the best medical care in the world. They can choose their place of education without thinking if they can afford it. For that, I happily pay my taxes (23%) - I get it all back.

 

[Jackytar]

For that, I happily pay my taxes (23%) - I get it all back.

Excuse me? 23%? What is that, your income tax? Care to tell us about your municipal tax? Your unemployment tax? Your social secruity tax? Your "sickness" tax? Your property tax? The "special" taxes? I'll assume you are not an employer paying corporate tax, capital gains and customs taxes but be assured those affect your wages. Now, let me see... "Value added tax" (sales tax) of 22%! And a pension tax of 16% (that's underfunded). And what's the liquor tax? You Fins sure like to drink, I understand. Hmmmm....

Oh and you left out some things in your economic history lesson. Like the collapse in the early 90's when home values and the stock market fell 50% and unemployment soared. What saved Finland? Deregulation, privatization and globalization.

Jackytar

 

[Sunstone]

I guarantee you that the 20 years my grandmother spent picking cotton in the hot Arkansas sun actually made her a better person in the long run.

Are you saying that the sort of hard work your grandmother did is justified because it made her a better person? If so, then better in what way? Could other experiences -- ones not involving picking cotton -- have achieved the same end result? And how important was this "better person" that emerged as a result of picking cotton -- how important was it to her own happiness?

I think you need to provide some evidence that comparatively hard work makes us better people -- at least you do if you want to "guarantee" that it does.

 

[Kathryn]

In Finland Taxation of an individual's income is progressive. In other words, the higher the income, the higher the rate of tax payable. In 2009 the income tax rate (national tax) for an individual is between 7%-30.5%. In addition to direct taxation there is also municipal tax in Finland. This tax is payable by an individual on his or her income and it fluctuates between 16% - 21% depending on the municipal authority. Church tax of 1%- 2.25% is also payable.
Reduced rates of tax or exemption are available for certain income earners.
The standard rate of Finland corporate tax in 2009 is 26%.

Tax (%)Tax Base (EUR)01-13,1007%13,101-21,70018%21,701-35,30022%35,301-64,50030.5%64,501 And Over



Interesting that Finland has a church tax.

So in addition to income taxes, the individual also pays an ADDITIONAL municipal tax that is 16% to 21% of their income. So - if you are in the 22% bracket but also pay an average municipal tax, you are also then actually paying about 41% in taxes.

Source: Finland Tax Laws Tax System Finland. - WorldWide-Tax.com

And your unemployment rate is 9%. Here in the US, we're in freakout mode because our unemployment just nudged into the 9% range - to us, that's a HORRIBLE figure, and one we haven't witnessed in a loooooooonnnnnng time.

Of course, as Jacky pointed out - this doesn't include property taxes, capital gains, social security, sickness, and sales taxes.

Of course, we all (including Americans) pay a lot more in taxes than we really think we do. My argument isn't that "the US is better than Finland" but rather that you're leaving out a large part of your own scenario when you say that you only pay 23% in taxes.

 

[twinmama]

I work, 23 % of my income goes to various taxes. So after all the different payments and taxes you listed I still have 77% of my monthly salary in my hand.

And you know what - I would be willing to even pay much more for the services I get.

Vat tax is all ready included in store prizes. It varies from 8% (food) to 75% (gasoline). The basic rule is that basic products that you need are cheaper taxed - like food. the more unnecessary/luxury product is, the more there is tax. So it is true, you would not want to buy Hummer in Finland. But I rather take the free school lunches than luxury car.

Gas prises are high but that's almost everywhere in (western)europe. EU dictates lot of the vat taxes.

Finland is not isolated from rest of the world, global economic situation rocks us up and down too, no matter if the companies are private or government owned.

And yes, unfortenately some people in North do like to drink too much. I just don't see how alcohol has to do with this any way. Swedish and Danes drink a lot too. So do Russians and many others.

(But hey, how could I know anything about my own country?)

People believe what they believe, really, I don't have any need to fight over this. I just believe that 80 hours weeks and crazy working really isn't a virtue. There are much more important things in this world than working hard.

Besides - in 50-100 years work will start to disappear when machines take over most of the jobs so...? (At least that is what the scientists are saying.)

 

[Kathryn]

Are you saying that the sort of hard work your grandmother did is justified because it made her a better person? If so, then better in what way? Could other experiences -- ones not involving picking cotton -- have achieved the same end result? And how important was this "better person" that emerged as a result of picking cotton -- how important was it to her own happiness?

I think you need to provide some evidence that comparatively hard work makes us better people -- at least you do if you want to "guarantee" that it does.

I believe that generally speaking, hard work for honest pay, for at least a portion of a person's life, helps build good character. It toughens most people, tests their endurance, makes them appreciative of what they've worked for and of the hard work of others. It tends to make people more self confident - they know that they've "got what it takes" if things get tough.

Of course, I'm not talking about slavery, or prison camps - that sort of punitive hard work. I'm talking about long hard hours for an agreed upon wage.

Someone gave my daughter a car a couple of years ago, when the owner moved overseas. Her husband left the keys in the car a few days ago and it was stolen. Oddly enough, they weren't that upset by this. It occurred to me that they hadn't paid for this car - it didn't represent any hours of work for them. It simply didn't have much value to them because they had nothing invested in it.

So - even though my daughter is generally an industrious person, she dropped the ball on this one. Their lack of care for their property manifested itself in their irresponsibility (they left the keys in the car all the time, with the doors unlocked). They hadn't worked for this car so they didn't value it.

One final note- I didn't guarantee that hard work makes EVERYONE's character better. I said it made my grandmother a better person.

Character is an individual choice. What you learn from your life experiences boils down to whether or not you choose to be open to correction, truth, and humility.

 

[Jackytar]

(But hey, how could I know anything about my own country?)

I was wondering the same thing. It seems Kathryn and I learned more about your economy in 5 minutes on the internet than you know from living there for a lifetime. You are still insisting that your tax rate is 23%. And that economic collaspe you experienced was largely homegrown. Too much borrowing. But I get it... things are "free" and taxes you can't see are not really there. And wealth is created out of thin air.

And robots will do our work! Here's the thing about that. Robots are already doing our work, in a sense. Much of what we enjoy in modern civilization is the result of our energy use. Every American enjoys the labor output of something like 140 strong men. This combined with technology has drastically increased the standard of living over the last century. This is what it means to have a "developed" economy. And, yes, things will probably get more efficient than even now with advancing technology and, hopefully, continued cheap and clean energy. But guess what? This is not going to change anything about this debate. In the future there will still be those creating wealth and improving the economy and there will still be those, who, although they may live better than the most who lived in the previous generation or elsewhere in the world, will still stay at home and bellyache.

Jackytar

 

[Sunstone]

I believe that generally speaking, hard work for honest pay, for at least a portion of a person's life, helps build good character. It toughens most people, tests their endurance, makes them appreciative of what they've worked for and of the hard work of others. It tends to make people more self confident - they know that they've "got what it takes" if things get tough.

I don't know if I can believe you there. In the first place, I've seen studies on thousands of things, but I've never yet seen even one study that suggests hard work does what you claim it does. In the second place, you offer no mechanism whereby hard work would bring about the changes in someone that you suggest it would. And last, there are far too many variables in need of definition here.

Of course, I'm not talking about slavery, or prison camps - that sort of punitive hard work. I'm talking about long hard hours for an agreed upon wage.

Why would working long hard hours for an agreed upon wage create more self-confidence than working long hard hours in a prison camp? I suspect there are factors besides the sheer quantity and difficulty of the work at play here.

Character is an individual choice.

Do you see the problem here? First, you have said that hard work causes X. But now you turn around and say that individual choice causes X. Well, which is it?


You have not made a case that "long, hard work" builds character.

 

[Kathryn]

You know what, Sunstone? I can't think of a SINGLE scientific method we can apply to determine if hard work for an agreed-upon wage (and in the context of this thread, I think it's obvious that when I say HARD WORK - I mean HARD WORK WELL DONE) builds good character, generally speaking.

Nor can I think of a scientific method or study that disproves that concept.

You may be on to something - maybe I've had it backwards!

Maybe is isn't that hard work well done CREATES good character. Maybe those of good character don't shirk hard work that creates excellent results!

I don't guess you give any credibility to the basic practice of most cultures since the beginning of time of admiring and honoring accomplishments, both great and small. Most personal and professional accomplishments that are noteworthy take more than a little effort - ie, some hard work.

 

[Magic Man]

The problem is that so many people are so IGNORANT of history. I think we are setting ourselves up for failure if we don't teach our children that sometimes you are just going to have to, simply put, WORK HARD. This particular character trait sure can come in handy sometimes.

Yes, that's the problem, nobody knows that people in the past worked really hard and long hours. I know that's my problem. My problem definitely isn't that I don't think people should have to work that hard, while realizing that some people have had to in the past.

As far as the second point here, do you think that there are people who don't think we should teach our kids that hard work is beneficial?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yep, most of us are the descendents of dirt farmers, miners, blacksmiths, etc. who worked harder than any of us can imagine. And yet we complain about working 40 hours a week "for da man."

The Japanese have a tendacy to work themselves to death.

No - what I am saying is that I find it ironic that this generation of workers - who have probably never picked cotton or beat iron into submission - complains about how hard they are having to work - when our ancestors would have thought they'd died and gone to heaven if they'd had the opportunity to work under our conditions.

I understand this. It wasn't too long ago when farmers had to walk while holding a plow.
But, why should we even work as hard as we do today? Why can't we American's enjoy more freetime like some of our European counterparts?

 

[Magic Man]

I was wondering the same thing. It seems Kathryn and I learned more about your economy in 5 minutes on the internet than you know from living there for a lifetime.

Either that, or you weren't paying attention. She still pays 23% of her salary in taxes. Your research didn't actually prove her wrong. Nothing she said about her country was wrong. The fact that you think you know more about her country from 5 minutes of research says volumes and doesn't do much to help you argument.

You are still insisting that your tax rate is 23%.

Tell me, what's 7+16? Last time I checked it was 23. However, you must be right, because if you weren't, you'd be...wrong! And we all know that can't be.

And that economic collaspe you experienced was largely homegrown. Too much borrowing. But I get it... things are "free" and taxes you can't see are not really there. And wealth is created out of thin air.

Here's an idea: Pay attention before responding. She said things are free because everyone everywhere pays taxes. If you think of taxes as money you don't see anyway, then it's perfectly logical to see the things it gives you as free.

 

[Jackytar]

If you think of taxes as money you don't see anyway, then it's perfectly logical to see the things it gives you as free.

<sigh>

Jackytar

 

[Jackytar]

But, why should we even work as hard as we do today? Why can't we American's enjoy more freetime like some of our European counterparts?

You can. In my first or second post to this thread I talked about friends of mine who are doing just that. One guy lives in the mountains of Oregon off the grid. He earns less than 20G per year as a small engine mechanic. He's spending the entire summer travelling and dirt biking with his adult daughter. Living a better life than the emperor of China a century or so ago. Good for him.

Jackytar

 

[Kathryn]

Yes, that's the problem, nobody knows that people in the past worked really hard and long hours. I know that's my problem. My problem definitely isn't that I don't think people should have to work that hard, while realizing that some people have had to in the past.

As far as the second point here, do you think that there are people who don't think we should teach our kids that hard work is beneficial?

So are you saying that having the strength of character to work hard to accomplish goals is good, and probably necessary to be successful?