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Is "hard work" a virtue?
- Thread starter Alceste
- Start date
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
And yet children starve and suffer malnutrition and millions dont have access to health care...
While some people earn more more in a day than others do in a year
God bless america:flirt:
The only children starving in the United States are the children of extremely irresponsible and/or abusive parents (and I'd love to see some statistics on how many children in the US are actually starving - source please).
About health care access by the way - anyone who is sick or injured in the US can go to the emergency room and get treatment. It is against the law for someone to be denied treatment because of inability to pay.
My daughter was single and 19 when she got pregnant. She received excellent prenatal care and delivered a beautiful healthy baby, and did not pay a cent. Our local Catholic hospital has a program for low income families and the doctors and hospital participate voluntarily.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Alceste, just for the record, I am a fiscal conservative. But I am also opposed to the death penalty, have no issue with gay unions (they don't fit my personal definition of marriage but they're welcome to call it that if they like) being legal and protected by our laws equally, I believe our health care system needs a HUGE overhaul, I believe marijuana should be legalized (why leave those tax dollars just lying on the floor? Tax the hell out of those left handed cigarettes!), and I am one of the least prejudiced people you will ever run across.
You may be confusing the concept of conservativism with the belief that people should take responsibility for their own actions.
When people consume more than they produce, someone has to make up the slack. They will either contribute voluntarily, or at the barrel of a gun - there's no middle ground.
You may be confusing the concept of conservativism with the belief that people should take responsibility for their own actions.
When people consume more than they produce, someone has to make up the slack. They will either contribute voluntarily, or at the barrel of a gun - there's no middle ground.
Alceste
Vagabond
I call bull ****.
twinmama said:
you said:
kathryn said:
Fine, so you guys don't think you're being rude. Everybody else seems to think you're being not only rude, but hostile too. Just goes to show you people see themselves differently than others do.
When you are acting rude and arrogant and I point out that you're being rude and arrogant in a particular way that is unique to American conservatives, I'm certainly not criticizing "Americans in general". Just you.
By the way, from your own source "In 2009 the income tax rate (national tax) for an individual is between 7%-30.5%."
On what planet doesn't 21 fall somewhere between 7 and 30.5? Oh yeah, the planet where anybody who likes paying taxes in exchange for excellent government services rather than paying more for inferior private services has "their head in the sand" and is "OBLIVIOUS". The planet of certain American conservatives, including you and Kathryn.
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Alceste
Vagabond
jackytar said:
Having looked into it myself now, I've come to the conclusion you should have spent more than 5 minutes "learning more about twinmama's country than she knows having lived there for a lifetime".
TABLE 1. Rates of state income tax on earned income 2009 (euro)
Taxable income | Basic tax amount | Rate within brackets (%)
13 100–21 700 | 8 | 7%
21 700–35 300 | 610 | 18 %
35 300–64 500 | 3 058 | 22 %
64 500– | 9 462 | 30.5 %
http://www.vero.fi/nc/doc/download.asp?id=4151;1035296
Jackytar
Ex-member
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I wish that was true. Many single parents have to work two jobs to make ends meat, and just barely provide food for the kids.
But, for alot of us, we can indeed go to an ER or doctor. Doesn't mean we can afford it though. Many people who have an emergency end up filing bankruptcy because of the bills.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
I have also brought it up many times. (Not that it really matters, but I believe I brought it up in one thread here first months ago when there was a story about Denmark being the happiest country in the world.)
Jackytar said:
Apparently you don't get it. twinmama is an example of someone who gets "free" healthcare, and she testifies that she wouldn't mind paying a lot more in taxes if that's what it took. If you can find evidence that the majority of Finnish people disagree with her on that, then great, her story doesn't mean much.
Your anecdote is fine. The only problem is that it's not necessarily representative of the whole. It can be used as evidence, but unless there is more evidence to indicate that your anecdote is extremely common, then it's just one person's story.
Kathryn said:
Just keep telling yourself that.
That's great. What about the people who don't have injuries or problems quite bad enough for ER care? And it's not like the government just pays for those people's visits to the ER. The person still has to pay. In fact, generally it just means they have to pay more.
Jacktar said:
And then proceeded to tell her what other taxes are also taken out, to which she responded by telling you that she takes home 77% of her paycheck.
Alceste
Vagabond
It occurred to me that the comparison with US taxes is completely meaningless unless the price Americans pay for the services covered by Finnish taxes is included in the comparison. So, take your tax rate, then add your health insurance, plus all deductibles, cost of medication, things that aren't covered, etc. Then add all your student loans and daycare costs (I'm assuming this is covered in Finland, but I don't know), and the cost of all the other public services taxes pay for in Finland that Americans pay for out of pocket. Then you can have a comparison that actually means something. Otherwise it's just a shallow-thinking, knee-jerk reaction to the whole concept of taxes. "Taxes bad. Socialism bad. Free market good. Capitalism good." Not a very compelling argument, IMO.
Jackytar
Ex-member
Yes, completely meaningless. Didn't you also say that Canada is more wealthy than England because of it's population density? And that economic growth is impossible because of finite natural resources? That you are a Libertarian who believes in big government and price fixing in the labor market? That cheap energy is bad? That the US minimum wage is five bucks? That taxes are consented to except by greedy people who don't count? That socialists want more goods and services but they are not self interested? That capitalists steal wealth from some "collective" pile rather than create it? That you believe in liberty, but you don't, but you do, but you don't. That you can see into the future? ...
Jackytar
Alceste
Vagabond
That Canadian property is cheaper than European property because of the population density. I'm very surprised it confused you - someone who professes to understand the basic economic premise of supply and demand.
That exponential, continuous economic growth is impossible because of finite natural resources. This too is completely obvious, and I provided a link to help you grasp the basic mathematics of this observation.
No, I said nothing of the sort. I invite you to review my posts, since you've absorbed nothing at all.... That the era of cheap energy is drawing to a close, and that the adjustment will be quite painful.
Don't recall saying that. Your heroic private sector firefighters who let a house burn to the ground rather than bother to show up for work were paid about five bucks an hour. Whether or not that is less than the federal minimum wage, I don't know.
Oh brother. Well, at least I can be comforted that just about everybody but you is able to understand and recollect my posts when they take the time to read them. I don't know where you get this nonsense, but I do now understand that all the time I've spent talking to you has been completely wasted.BTW, anybody can see into the future. It's not rocket science. It's a simple matter of assessing various probabilities based on a wide spectrum of foundational knowledge, reason, and a basic understanding of history and human psychology. My predictions (when I have enough information to make them) are far more often right than wrong. If you find you are unable to see into the future yourself, you might consider expanding your base of foundational knowledge.
Jackytar
Ex-member
I see you moving to Finland with your boyfriend and making a fortune in the underground liquor market.
Jackytar
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
US minimum wage has not been five bucks since 1997. Many states voluntarily increase the minimum wage.
Energy costs rise due to many reasons, including inflation and government interference with the free market. And yes, when Obama's administration finishes pushing through this Cap and Trade agenda, we will definitely experience a huge jump in the costs of energy - coming right out of the pockets of middle-income Americans -many of whose jobs will be jeopardized or destroyed by the same legislation.
EDITORIAL: Killing Cap & Trade - Washington Times
Energy costs rise due to many reasons, including inflation and government interference with the free market. And yes, when Obama's administration finishes pushing through this Cap and Trade agenda, we will definitely experience a huge jump in the costs of energy - coming right out of the pockets of middle-income Americans -many of whose jobs will be jeopardized or destroyed by the same legislation.
EDITORIAL: Killing Cap & Trade - Washington Times
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Don't leave out the part about living in a tent and foraging for food.
WOOOOHOOOOOOOO!!!
Alceste
Vagabond
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
congratulations for waking up!
In the end, capitalism, in USA, has become greed and selfishness. That is the bottom line. The super rich are happy, the poor are worse off now than they were in the great depression..... while those in the middle teeter between rich and poor and often still support greed, in some kind of vain hope that they too can join the super rich.....
Fairy tale land..where we are rich and the poor just die; but then that IS what is at the heart of right wing politics..... :sarcastic they are poor, let them smoke, drink,...their death is unimportant...harsh...but that is what history teaches us is at the heart of right wing politics and that is what americans vote for:flirt:quite ironic considering Jesus' message is supposedly in their hearts and minds
Ciscokid
Well-Known Member
I'm convinced that Denmark and Finland are great places to live [especially if you are native]. I think I question however comparing these two countries to America when it comes to social challenges. I mean let's face it, neither of those countries [Netherlands] even compete with NY city in terms of population, they're tiny.
I have to imagine that population comes into effect when talking about social programs and ways of life. What works for them may not work for us or China.
Sharing the wealth with a group of educated, hard working affluent people is very different than letting an uneducated, non English speaking, poor person walk across our border and demand services.
blackout
Violet.
The tent is only while I build myself one of these:
OOooooOOOOoOooohhhh! Is that REAL?
If I was very virtuous, and worked very very hard....
do you think I could 'build' one of those for each member of my family...
in a large field? With maybe one central one that has a kitchen?
Seperate bunny houses!
What a SPLENDID alternative to this ridiculous
"one family per house" model we live in!
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
ah self interest....
if a whiff of actually sharing instead of greed occurs...
blame it on the mexicans....