Is Heaven, Nirvana etc the goal?

[A Vestigial Mote]

As I tell all my atheist friends, you will have your verifiable evidence when you die and realize that you are not dead.
I cannot say what will happen to you after that, such knowledge is with God alone.

Please excuse me if I cannot accept such words at face value.

 

[Trailblazer]

Please excuse me if I cannot accept such words at face value.

I never expected that you would.
You will just have to wait and see if I am right or wrong.
If I am right and you have a soul that is responsible for consciousness then you will realize that as soon as you die.
If I am wrong and you have no soul then you won't realize anything.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

If I am right and you have a soul that is responsible for consciousness then you will realize that as soon as you die.
If I am wrong and you have no soul then you won't realize anything.

My assumption is the latter, and I have seen nothing in this life to inform me that the administration of the universe will provide for me, personally, otherwise.

 

[Trailblazer]

My assumption is the latter, and I have seen nothing in this life to inform me that the administration of the universe will provide for me, personally, otherwise.

My belief is the former and I am as sure of it as I am of anything in this life
Just as I know that God exists, I know that an afterlife exists.
I don't know a lot about what the afterlife will be like, but I know it will be.

 

[blü 2]

I hear a lot of Christians say they are looking forward to eternity in Heaven. Hindus say they want to become one with God and Buddhists say they want to reach Nirvana.

However the Gospel (Good news) is that people will spend eternity in a new body on earth.

Perhaps what God thinks is good is different from what people thing is good.

I think it's wise to proceed on the basis that, as Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 says,

For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other.
They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.
All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.​

And if that turns out to be wrong, you've lost nothing.

Meanwhile, if you simply plan to leave this planet a somewhat better place than you found it, you'll have lived well and on that basis you can die well.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I hear a lot of Christians say they are looking forward to eternity in Heaven. Hindus say they want to become one with God and Buddhists say they want to reach Nirvana.

However the Gospel (Good news) is that people will spend eternity in a new body on earth.

Perhaps what God thinks is good is different from what people thing is good.

My goal in this life is to win the Good Pleasure of God. I won’t know that I don’t think, until I reach the next world.

 

[Jainarayan]

Hindus say they want to become one with God

We’re already one with God. We were never separated. We just don’t know it when we’re in this form.

 

[Jainarayan]

3. Vaishnavas: Live in devotion to live in nearness of God.

And even then we have subcategories of those beliefs. Within Vaishnavism I can think of three, for anyone who doesn’t know:

1. Gaudiya is largely Acintyabhedābheda. “Inconceivable oneness and difference”.
2. ISKCON, iirc is almost completely dualist.
3. We have Viśiṣṭādvaita, which I lean towards: all diversity are parts of the whole (Brahman)... qualified monism. The Bhagavad Gita virtually screams Viśiṣṭādvaita.

So yes, too many variations to make one label for all Hindus, even in one sect.

 

[Muffled]

Please point me to the verses that say that people will spend eternity in a new body on earth.
Thanks in advance.

I Cor. 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable

 

[Muffled]

Please point me to the verses in the Bible that say that.

John19:30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

John 20:20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.

 

[Muffled]

The question is too complex for me because we don't know what Jesus really said - just what the authors of the Bible and other editors later said that he said.

But if you want me to comment on what is in the Bible:
Did Jesus Descend into Hell? has that quote and more.

For the last clause, having a physical body to me is a great privilege.\, because we can progress toward God only when incarnate. So I believe that working on loving God is indeed for the living.

I believe eternal life delays that progress because no evil is available in the Kingdom of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I Cor. 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable

That verse does not say that people will spend eternity in a new body on earth.
The body that is raised imperishable is raised to go to heaven.

Our physical bodies will die and we will be raised as spiritual bodies. Paul says that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and that means they cannot exist in heaven. When Paul says these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, he is referring to the spiritual world (heaven), which will last forever.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter

 

[Trailblazer]

John19:30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

John 20:20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.

I asked you to show me the verses that say that the Spirit of God left the body of Jesus on the cross before it died and returned to a glorified living body three days later. These verses don't show me that.

Where do any verses say that Jesus got a glorified body? There are no such verses in the Bible because the glorified body is an unsupported Christian belief.

 

[Muffled]

Yes, Paul speaks of Jesus being the 'first fruit'.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

The notion of your soul zooming off to heaven is not the traditional, orthodox teaching, but rather a post-enlightenment compromise under the influence of Plato.


Resurrection - OrthodoxWiki

From what I read on the Wiki that looks like the last judgment resurrection rather than the Rapture resurrection.

 

[Muffled]

I believe that we progress by the free will choices we make in this life, and that the primary purpose of this life is to know and love God, but I believe we continue to progress towards God after we die and enter the spiritual world, where we will take on another form, a spiritual body.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

All that said and quoted, I do not know exactly how we will progress without free will and the ability to make choices, that is a mystery. The Baha'i belief is that we will only be able to progress by the grace of God, the prayers of others, and good works done in our name, but I tend to believe there is more to it than that.

Nevertheless, it makes some sense to me that we will no longer have free will as we know it in this life, since free will is primarily for the purpose of making moral choices, by which we can grow spiritually. I believe that when we die physically and enter the spiritual world we will be whoever we have become in this world and we will start to advance from that point on. We will begin to develop along a new line but we will not be able to get what we did not get in this world and that is what makes this life so very important for attaining spiritual growth. An analogy that has been given is that we are developing our spiritual arms and legs in this world just as a baby in the womb develops physical arms and legs, and just as the baby will need those arms and legs to walk, we will need our spiritual arms and legs (the spiritual attributes we have acquired in this world) to be equipped for life in the spiritual world.

I believe his statement that is highlighted is false. That's what comes of listening to a religious philosopher instead of listening to God.

 

[Muffled]

I think God has bigger plans than all of the above.

I believe you can't go wrong there. All God's plans are bigger than we can imagine.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe his statement that is highlighted is false. That's what comes of listening to a religious philosopher instead of listening to God.

I believe his statement that is highlighted is true. That's what comes from listening to a Manifestation of God instead of listening to Christians who misinterpreted the Bible and thus misunderstood the meaning of the Bible.

The Bible was not written by God so nobody reading it is listening to God.
The Writings of Baha'u'llah were written in His Own Pen and since He was a Manifestation of God who received a direct Revelation from God, whatever He wrote came directly from God.

 

[Muffled]

I believe his statement that is highlighted is true. That's what comes from listening to a Manifestation of God instead of listening to Christians who misinterpreted the Bible and thus misunderstood the meaning of the Bible.

The Bible was not written by God so nobody reading it is listening to God.
The Writings of Baha'u'llah were written in His Own Pen and since He was a Manifestation of God who received a direct Revelation from God, whatever He wrote came directly from God.

I believe from the number of false statements he makes that he can't possibly have a revelation from God. However I don't believe he is a deceiver but perhaps deluded in some cases.

I get my information from God directly so it is never a matter of misinterpretation. I would be glad to do a logical review though if you think you can rather than just toe the religious line.

 

[Muffled]

You are making a generalized statement about Hindus. That never works. Let us list the various beliefs in Hinduism (Hindu members can add to the list if they so desire).

1. Advaita (the view that I follow): You are in reality that of which the whole universe is made up of. Just understand that.
2. Shaivas: Live and austere life to merge with Shiva.
3. Vaishnavas: Live in devotion to live in nearness of God.
4. Others: Live righteously so that you stay in heaven and avoid hell, also get a better deal on rebirth.

So what is your goal or have you already arrived?

 

[Muffled]

The only spiritual "goal" i have is to be the best version of me that i can be when i am on earth, the rest is up to Allah.

I believe that is a worthy goal.

Do you have any desire for eternal life, Heaven or another life on earth?