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Is Heaven, Nirvana etc the goal?

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
It should be an easy choice. I believe it is just because you have a choice.
A "choice" where one of two outcomes is eternal suffering is not a choice, it's a threat.

Your God would be akin to an armed criminal who gave people the "choice" between taking their money and taking their lives.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
A "choice" where one of two outcomes is eternal suffering is not a choice, it's a threat.

Your God would be akin to an armed criminal who gave people the "choice" between taking their money and taking their lives.
I do not believe in either heaven or hell, i.e., eternal suffering, but if such as dichotomy did exist it would be a choice, not a threat.
An armed criminal who gives people the "choice" between taking their money and taking their lives is giving them a choice.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
I hear a lot of Christians say they are looking forward to eternity in Heaven. Hindus say they want to become one with God and Buddhists say they want to reach Nirvana.

However the Gospel (Good news) is that people will spend eternity in a new body on earth.

Perhaps what God thinks is good is different from what people thing is good.
Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. (1 John 3:2)
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
I hear a lot of Christians say they are looking forward to eternity in Heaven. Hindus say they want to become one with God and Buddhists say they want to reach Nirvana.

However the Gospel (Good news) is that people will spend eternity in a new body on earth.

Perhaps what God thinks is good is different from what people thing is good.

It begins on Earth -the meek shall inherit the Earth -but more and more immortals will need more and more room (humans will continue to reproduce on Earth, etc, and become immortal.) -hence the entire creation.

God said the heavens/universe/worlds were not created in vain, but "formed to be inhabited".
Also, that the entire creation will be liberated from its bondage to decay by the children of God.
Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end!
Our new bodies will have power like unto the glorious body which allowed the Word to create all things in the first place... "glorious body, according to the working thereof he is able to subdue all things unto himself."

Regardless of where we are, the "goal" is for everything to work correctly -for everyone to do good and not evil -so that we don't make a mess of things -so things can be awesome and fun and not stupid -which is why we are temporarily bound to this planet while we learn from experience and are perfected.

We are learning that humans going out into the universe isn't really practical as we are so dependent on its specific conditions, etc. -but the new bodies will allow us to not be bound to Earth.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We are learning that humans going out into the universe isn't really practical as we are so dependent on its specific conditions, etc. -but the new bodies will allow us to not be bound to Earth.
Paul says that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, and that means they cannot exist in Heaven. When Paul says these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, he is referring to the spiritual world (Heaven), which will last forever. Our physical bodies will die and we will be raised (resurrected) as spiritual bodies that will be suited to go to Heaven and last forever.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Paul says that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, and that means they cannot exist in Heaven. When Paul says these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, he is referring to the spiritual world (Heaven), which will last forever. Our physical bodies will die and we will be raised (resurrected) as spiritual bodies that will be suited to go to Heaven and last forever.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter
There are actually three heavens specified by scripture (basically atmosphere, space/universe, the place of the present throne of God -search "third heaven") -but we will inhabit "the heavens" -not specifically heaven.

There is only logical separation -everything that exists is one thing.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe we are living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah and the Christian Dispensation was abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

I believe you might as well believe in the tooth fairy as believe that. I certainly am in the dispensation of Christianity even if you are not. And the reality remains your dispensation is not from God.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
There are spiritual bodies in Heaven, according to Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]


Read full chapter

I believe you need to understand the difference between heaven and Heaven. Paul is talking about heaven, not Heaven.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
There are actually three heavens specified by scripture (basically atmosphere, space/universe, the place of the present throne of God -search "third heaven") -but we will inhabit "the heavens" -not specifically heaven.

There is only logical separation -everything that exists is one thing.

n religious or mythological cosmology, the seven heavens refer to seven levels or divisions of the Heavens (Heaven). The concept, also found in the ancient Mesopotamian religions, can be found in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - wikipedia
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe you might as well believe in the tooth fairy as believe that. I certainly am in the dispensation of Christianity even if you are not. And the reality remains your dispensation is not from God.
I certainly am in the dispensation of Baha'u'llah even if you are not. And the reality remains the dispensation of Baha'u'llah is from God. The reality also remains that all former dispensations have been abrogated...

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it,God Passes By, p. 100

God passed by and you didn't even see it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe you need to understand the difference between heaven and Heaven. Paul is talking about heaven, not Heaven.
There is just Heaven, there are not two heavens, although there are many worlds of God in Heaven.

“As to thy question concerning the worlds of God. Know thou of a truth that the worlds of God are countless in their number, and infinite in their range. None can reckon or comprehend them except God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, pp. 151-152

There is nothing about two heavens in the Bible... Christians always interpret the Bible to suit their purposes, it's nothing new.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I certainly am in the dispensation of Baha'u'llah even if you are not. And the reality remains the dispensation of Baha'u'llah is from God. The reality also remains that all former dispensations have been abrogated...

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it,God Passes By, p. 100

God passed by and you didn't even see it.

I believe you are greatly deluded.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
n religious or mythological cosmology, the seven heavens refer to seven levels or divisions of the Heavens (Heaven). The concept, also found in the ancient Mesopotamian religions, can be found in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - wikipedia
Just pointing out that biblical scripture specifies three in one verse -and describes only three elsewhere. Is there any specific mention of more there?

2 Cor 12:2 I know a man yin Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
 

syo

Well-Known Member
I hear a lot of Christians say they are looking forward to eternity in Heaven. Hindus say they want to become one with God and Buddhists say they want to reach Nirvana.

However the Gospel (Good news) is that people will spend eternity in a new body on earth.

Perhaps what God thinks is good is different from what people thing is good.
Nope. We reincarnate.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
A "choice" where one of two outcomes is eternal suffering is not a choice, it's a threat.

Your God would be akin to an armed criminal who gave people the "choice" between taking their money and taking their lives.

The more I read biblical scripture, the "forever and ever", etc. part is more like indefinite and dependent than infinite.

People assume by such words that "hell" is eternal, for example -but then there are verses like these which they do not consider....
1 Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Transgression is such because it degrades and destroys the creation.
What God is doing/described as doing in scripture is allowing just enough experience to bring us to a point of acceptance of necessary government/the law of love.
Though it is presently a harsh reality, it is a necessary on if newbies are to overcome it and get with the necessary program -which is government that allows for all to live and create in peace and happiness without conflict.

Those who strive to overcome transgression and purify themselves/ask God to purify them -and do good works -will fare better later. Those who do not purify themselves/ask God to purify them will be separated and purified as the rest go on ahead, as it were. The possibility exists that "both body and spirit" CAN be destroyed in "gehenna" -but that does not mean that is what WILL happen.
It is a separation and ultimatum -unpleasantness -they go no further unless/until willing to accept/do righteousness, peace and happiness.
Perhaps it can be viewed as forced, but the overall situation forces the necessity.

God is very clear that he will -and must -supersede our personal will -because our personal will can be detrimental to ourselves, others and the creation.

He is going to make us more happy than we can imagine whether or not we like or understand it now.

the present was necessary to create that future, but the ills of the present will be not only healed, but eventually forgotten.
Then we will be given powerful and invulnerable bodies -allowing us access to the entire universe/creation.

1 Cor 6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create:

Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Just pointing out that biblical scripture specifies three in one verse -and describes only three elsewhere. Is there any specific mention of more there?

2 Cor 12:2 I know a man yin Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
The Baha'i scriptures indicate that there is more than one heaven. I would assume from the following passage that there are four heavens, since Jesus would be in the highest heaven at the right hand of God. The following passage describes the trial of Jesus and how He finally took His flight to the fourth Heaven after he was crucified.

“Similarly, call thou to mind the day when the Jews, who had surrounded Jesus, Son of Mary, were pressing Him to confess His claim of being the Messiah and Prophet of God, so that they might declare Him an infidel and sentence Him to death. Then, they led Him away, He Who was the Day-star of the heaven of divine Revelation, unto Pilate and Caiaphas, who was the leading divine of that age. The chief priests were all assembled in the palace, also a multitude of people who had gathered to witness His sufferings, to deride and injure Him. Though they repeatedly questioned Him, hoping that He would confess His claim, yet Jesus held His peace and spake not. Finally, an accursed of God arose and, approaching Jesus, adjured Him saying: “Didst thou not claim to be the Divine Messiah? Didst thou not say, ‘I am the King of Kings, My word is the Word of God, and I am the breaker of the Sabbath day?’” Thereupon Jesus lifted up His head and said: “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and might?” These were His words, and yet consider how to outward seeming He was devoid of all power except that inner power which was of God and which had encompassed all that is in heaven and on earth. How can I relate all that befell Him after He spoke these words? How shall I describe their heinous behaviour towards Him? They at last heaped on His blessed Person such woes that He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 132-133
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Just pointing out that biblical scripture specifies three in one verse -and describes only three elsewhere. Is there any specific mention of more there?

2 Cor 12:2 I know a man yin Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.

I believe there is no Biblical reference to seven heavens. Evidently it was first mentioned in Hindu writings. With no mention in the Bible and Hindu writings suspect at best then the arbiter is God Himself and He tells me that there are seven heavens.
 
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