Is Hell Necessary To Christianity?

[Storm]

As a theologically-minded Unitarian Universalist, I've been following the thread Why is universalism heresy? with great interest.

Several folks have expressed the thought that, without Hell, Christianity falls apart completely.

I don't get it.

If you share the opinion above (and are willing to defend it), kindly explain why you think eternal damnation is the lynchpin of Christianity.

Furthermore, if something so ugly is so important to the religion, doesn't that make the religion itself despicable?

ETA: Penguin reminded me that some people have milder understandings of Hell, like separation from God. I was assuming people were talking about the classical fire and brimstone and torture. Please be specific in your response.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As a theologically-minded Unitarian Universalist, I've been following the thread Why is universalism heresy? with great interest.

Several folks have expressed the thought that, without Hell, Christianity falls apart completely.

I don't get it.

If you share the opinion above (and are willing to defend it), kindly explain why you think eternal damnation is the lynchpin of Christianity.

IMO, Christianity is all wrapped up in the idea of a divine Saviour. If you don't have something to save everyone from, you don't have a Saviour.

This doesn't imply eternal damnation specifically, but it does imply something very unpleasant for the "unsaved".

Furthermore, if something so ugly is so important to the religion, doesn't that make the religion itself despicable?

Not necessarily. I think that aspect of Christianity is pretty nasty, but there's more to Christianity than Hell. Quite a bit of it is based on the idea of following Jesus' example, which is generally interpreted in good ways.

However, even following Jesus' example (i.e. "love other people and put that love into practice", basically) is still rooted in the idea of Hell: Jesus' example is only a good one if it involves guiding people to a conclusion that's materially better than they would've reached otherwise.

 

[Storm]

IMO, Christianity is all wrapped up in the idea of a divine Saviour. If you don't have something to save everyone from, you don't have a Saviour.

This doesn't imply eternal damnation specifically, but it does imply something very unpleasant for the "unsaved".

I don't think it has to be "very unpleasant." It could just be a complete death, including the soul.

Not necessarily. I think that aspect of Christianity is pretty nasty, but there's more to Christianity than Hell. Quite a bit of it is based on the idea of following Jesus' example, which is generally interpreted in good ways.

But the people the OP was aimed at seem to be saying the opposite: that without Hell, there is no Christianity.

FTR, I agree with you that there's more to the tradition than that one doctrine. It's just that some people apparantly disagree with the both of us.

However, even following Jesus' example (i.e. "love other people and put that love into practice", basically) is still rooted in the idea of Hell: Jesus' example is only a good one if it involves guiding people to a conclusion that's materially better than they would've reached otherwise.

Well, yeah, but that still doesn't imply Hell.

 

[Reptillian]

There is no Christianity without salvation...now it becomes a matter of what that salvation is from. Jesus and early Christians suggested that salvation was from death itself...the ultimate punishment for Adam's sins that all mankind inherited...not from Hell as modern Christian thought seems to prefer.

 

[Tarheeler]

I don't know if hell itself is necessary, but there must be some alternative to heaven.
I think your comment about a "complete death" would work (and personally that's the idea I lean towards the most).

Without that alternative many of the basic ideas of the religion (e.g. original sin, vicarious salvation, the final judgment) no longer have a purpose.

 

[142857]

I think theoretically If christianity is the 'truth' then every person on earth 'could' wind up in heaven.
Leaving Hell empty.

not very likely, but plausable....everyone could be saved, er, save themselves.

However empty hell still be there

I think personally all religion kind of falls apart without an ultimate punishment or an ultimate reward.

I'm really interested in why the ultimate reward usually gets described as free access to all ones worldly greeds and desires. (riches, mansions, ect.)

 

[Skwim]

As a theologically-minded Unitarian Universalist, I've been following the thread Why is universalism heresy? with great interest.

Several folks have expressed the thought that, without Hell, Christianity falls apart completely.

I don't get it.

Without a hell there's nothing to save us from, and with nothing to save us from there's no reason to seek god's forgiveness for our sins, and with no reason to seek god's forgiveness, there's no reason to turn to Jesus, and with no reason to turn to Jesus, there's no reason to go to church, and with no reason to go to church, there are a lot of potential preachers working in gas stations, and with a lot of potential preachers working in gas stations,

1) they can't satisfy their need for power and influence

2) one can't construct the cash-cow conglomerates they have.​

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't think it has to be "very unpleasant." It could just be a complete death, including the soul.

By "unpleasant", I meant an undesireable prospect, not that it necessarily implies physical pain or anything like that. I'd say that death fits that bill.

BTW - what are we using as our working definition of Hell? Some Christians describe Hell as "separation from God"; we aren't necessarily assuming molten brimstone and devils with pitchforks, are we?

Well, yeah, but that still doesn't imply Hell.

I think it kinda does. Jesus' example isn't a good one unless he's saving humanity from something nasty. If he's just convincing us to go from one equally nice outcome to another, he hasn't accomplished anything that would really instill gratitude.

 

[Storm]

By "unpleasant", I meant an undesireable prospect, not that it necessarily implies physical pain or anything like that. I'd say that death fits that bill.

OK, fair enough.

BTW - what are we using as our working definition of Hell? Some Christians describe Hell as "separation from God"; we aren't necessarily assuming molten brimstone and devils with pitchforks, are we?

Actually, I was. Eternal torment, yadda yadda. Maybe that's my mistake. Glad you asked.

In fact, I think I'll edit the OP to reflect that.

I think it kinda does. Jesus' example isn't a good one unless he's saving humanity from something nasty. If he's just convincing us to go from one equally nice outcome to another, he hasn't accomplished anything that would really instill gratitude.

Well, there are degrees. Death is undesirable to most people without the threat of demons torturing your soul.

 

[Quiddity]

We rejected universalism back in the 5th Council. The fact is that everyone has nonnegotiables and is dogmatic in differing degrees. Everybody has limits and no one tolerates everything. We know we operate this way as individuals and move toward dogmatism as a society. This innate behaivor IMO, indicates a very clear possibility of some people who quite frankly don't want to conform to what the majority deems as good. A seperation occurs and Hell comes to be.

The only other alternative is they seize to exist. If that were indeed the case, that would deffinately change things.

 

[Storm]

We rejected universalism back in the 5th Council. The fact is that everyone has nonnegotiables and is dogmatic in differing degrees. Everybody has limits and no one tolerates everything. We know we operate this way as individuals and move toward dogmatism as a society. This innate behaivor IMO, indicates a very clear possibility of some people who quite frankly don't want to conform to what the majority deems as good. A seperation occurs and Hell comes to be.

The only other alternative is they seize to exist. If that were indeed the case, that would deffinately change things.

Oh, don't misunderstand, I'm not banging the Universalism drum. I'm questioning the stance that Hell is the defining doctrine of Christianity.

 

[Quiddity]

Oh, don't misunderstand, I'm not banging the Universalism drum. I'm questioning the stance that Hell is the defining doctrine of Christianity.

Ok.....my bad.

Necessary....hmm.

People could technically just go to heaven upon death and those that chose not to, just seize to exist. I believe some branches of Judaism hold to this if I remember correctly.

That would definately change things for us though. Seizing to exist wouldn't be a bad deal in some people's eyes.

So one could almost say that God created Hell because He loves us.

 

[Penumbra]

Without a hell there's nothing to save us from, and with nothing to save us from there's no reason to seek god's forgiveness for our sins, and with no reason to seek god's forgiveness, there's no reason to turn to Jesus, and with no reason to turn to Jesus, there's no reason to go to church, and with no reason to go to church, there are a lot of potential preachers working in gas stations, and with a lot of potential preachers working in gas stations,

1) they can't satisfy their need for power and influence

2) one can't construct the cash-cow conglomerates they have.​

That's basically it.

Hell is about fear, tribalism, power, etc.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

If a place of eternal torment and punishment is essential to your religion, I think it's time for you to start shopping for a new belief.

 

[Midnight Pete]

As a theologically-minded Unitarian Universalist, I've been following the thread Why is universalism heresy? with great interest.

Several folks have expressed the thought that, without Hell, Christianity falls apart completely.

I don't get it.

If you share the opinion above (and are willing to defend it), kindly explain why you think eternal damnation is the lynchpin of Christianity.

Furthermore, if something so ugly is so important to the religion, doesn't that make the religion itself despicable?

ETA: Penguin reminded me that some people have milder understandings of Hell, like separation from God. I was assuming people were talking about the classical fire and brimstone and torture. Please be specific in your response.

Eternal damnation is *NOT* the linchpin of Christianity. Who has made that claim?
The crucifixion and resurrection of Christ is the linchpin. Eternal damnation is a very important feature of the Gospel message, but Christ did not come to bring a negative message. Hed came to bring a positive message-- there is a way out of eternal damnation and he is that way. Jesus says in John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Milder understandings of Hell are scripturally correct but less descriptive. Eternal separation from God, sounds milder than eterna damnation but they mean the same. As for the classical fire and brimstone ... there are biblical references to "a fiery lake of burning sulfur" (Revelations 21:8) and "a place where the fire is not quenched (Michael 9:43-48)

Hell is ugly. It's uglier than anyone can imagine but God tells us about it so we know just how dire the threat really is.

To any non-believer reading these words: I have taken the time and the effort to write this post not because of any certainty that you will be won over, but simply to serve God. Don't expect to wound me with mockery or cynicism.

 

[Midnight Pete]

If a place of eternal torment and punishment is essential to your religion, I think it's time for you to start shopping for a new belief.

Yeah, atheism doesn't have any of that.

 

[Storm]

Eternal damnation is *NOT* the linchpin of Christianity. Who has made that claim?

That would be you:

The whole of Christianity is destroyed if hell is deemed extra-biblical.

Now, would you like to have an honest conversation about it?

 

[Midnight Pete]

That would be you:

Now, would you like to have an honest conversation about it?

Why are you accusing me of dishonesty?

Just because Hell isn't the focal point of Christianity doesn't mean the doctrine of it can or should be dispensed with.

 

[Storm]

Why are you accusing me of dishonesty?

Because you were being dishonest.

Just because Hell isn't the focal point of Christianity doesn't mean the doctrine of it can or should be dispensed with.

I didn't say it was the focal point, I said you were calling it the lynchpin, which you were.

Lynchpin, n
1. a pin inserted through the end of an axletree to keep the wheel on.
2. something that holds the various elements of a complicated structure together: The monarchy was the linchpin of the nation's traditions and society.

If removing Hell would make Christianity fall apart, that makes Hell a lynchpin. That's what the word means.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Because you were being dishonest.


I didn't say it was the focal point, I said you were calling it the lynchpin, which you were.

Lynchpin, n
1. a pin inserted through the end of an axletree to keep the wheel on.
2. something that holds the various elements of a complicated structure together: The monarchy was the linchpin of the nation's traditions and society.

If removing Hell would make Christianity fall apart, that makes Hell a lynchpin. That's what the word means.

Removing the Immaculate Conception would also make Christianity fall apart. Ditto for the Last Supper, the Sermon on the Mount, and the miracles of Jesus.