Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
That's a mighty fragile religion you've got there.
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Is Hell Necessary To Christianity?
- Thread starter Storm
- Start date
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
Not really. It's lasted 2000 years.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Anyway, Pete, your claim is clearly false, as the rich history of universalism in Christianity shows.
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
Not sure what you mean by "my version."
Christianity as a whole has lasted 2000 years, so it's not a fragile religion.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Indeed. What I mean by "your version" is this fantasy where any one of a dozen trivial doctrines is all-important.
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
You shouldn't pay attention to all the denominational idiosyncrasies. Taken together, it's madness.
There is only one doctrine that really counts: Jesus Christ and him crucified.
Skwim
Veteran Member
I have. Post #7.Eternal damnation is *NOT* the linchpin of Christianity. Who has made that claim?
"Without a hell there's nothing to save us from, and with nothing to save us from there's no reason to seek god's forgiveness for our sins, and with no reason to seek god's forgiveness, there's no reason to turn to Jesus, and with no reason to turn to Jesus, there's no reason to go to church, and with no reason to go to church, there are a lot of potential preachers working in gas stations, and with a lot of potential preachers working in gas stations,
1) they can't satisfy their need for power and influence
2) one can't construct the cash-cow conglomerates they have."
2) one can't construct the cash-cow conglomerates they have."
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Why do conditional relationships make something weak?
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
Because it was what put Christ on the cross. The otherwise inevitability of Hell for mankind and the sin-debt that was paid in full with his blood.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "conditional relationships," but the Christianity Pete described is a house of cards.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Why would it destroy Christianity for Hell to be replaced by death?
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
I don't know what you mean by house of cards....lol
By conditional relationship I simply mean that religious tenets are conditions by one partner.
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
It survived the Protestant Reformation.
It survived the advent of modern science.
Not to mention wars and social upheaval.
EverChanging
Well-Known Member
As far as I can tell, the doctrine of eternal damnation is hard to establish if not non-existent in the Bible. This has come about because of poor translation of the Bible as well as reading the scriptures through a particular theological lens rather than reading it for what it really says.
The doctrine of hell developed over many years. It isn't even mentioned in the Nicene Creed, which is normative for most Christians.
This passage in Ephesians might be interpreted as meaning that people have been saved from hell:
Ephesians 4 (NIV)
7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it[a] says:
When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.[b]
9 (What does he ascended mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11
This passage is similar:
1 Peter 3
8 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
The doctrine of hell developed over many years. It isn't even mentioned in the Nicene Creed, which is normative for most Christians.
This passage in Ephesians might be interpreted as meaning that people have been saved from hell:
Ephesians 4 (NIV)
7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it[a] says:
When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.[b]
9 (What does he ascended mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11
This passage is similar:
1 Peter 3
8 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Yeah, that wasn't this anemic version where if any of these ultimately trivial doctrines gets challenged, the whole religion will be destroyed.
EverChanging
Well-Known Member
This was a late addition to the Apostles Creed (which is why the United Methodist Church leaves that phrase out), and in any case, it says nothing about eternal punishment in the creed. There is more than one interpretation of the word "hell." It is a doctrine that has developed over the centuries.
Many churches allow a wide degree of interpretation of the creeds. United Methodists aren't even required to subscribe to every word of the creed (and I suspect this is true in practice of most denominations). They recite the creed as a tradition, a way of uniting with generations of Christians who have recited the same words, not as a binding dogma.
Even in the Roman Catholic Church, dogmas are ultimately mysteries into which humans will never fully enter. Dogmas are infallible, but doctrine must interpret dogma, and doctrine is fallible.
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