Is hell too harsh?

[Philomath]

I think the first response to the OP in the thread you directed me to got it spot on, he said, "To use Bible quotes to prove it, requires the reader to accept the Truth of the Bible."
If not, none of it matters.

I think you should read through the entire thread rather than just the first post. That thread has been going on for years and no one has still been able to present a single Bible verse where Jesus explicitly says that he is God.

 

[Caladan]

Yes but Jesus wasnt just mortal man, He was God incarnate. And sorry about dipping into the proseltizing no-no, It wasnt my motive to do so.:sorry1:

The members on this forum practice virtually dozens of faiths, belief systems, and philosophies. Many of which (most of which) do not consider Jesus to be God incarnate. In many cases the mere idea is an insult to their cultural sensibilities (mine included). So definitely not 'easy', nor logical, nor something I want preached to me when the real reason I (and every member who took the time as expected to read the forum mission statement) joined this forum is to discuss world religions, not adhere to them or be preached that I need to accept other people's opinions and beliefs for the sake of my soul.
I have my own beliefs, others have theirs. Good enough for me.

 

[captainbryce]

Well if given an opportunity to give someone else who was wicked your spot in heaven would you do it?

Of course not. Why would it? Would you?

 

[Riverwolf]

*Post Removed*

How are those two things the same thing?

Having compassion for people who do harmful things puts absolutely no expense on everyone else, especially when you're omnipotent.

 

[captainbryce]

How are those two things the same thing?

Having compassion for people who do harmful things puts absolutely no expense on everyone else, especially when you're omnipotent.

If your saying that evil people should be allowed to live in eternal paradise, with no consequence of their evil, then that is not fair to all of the good people. If you're saying that evil people should be allowed into heaven along with the good, then heaven is no longer paradise, because it is now tainted with evil. Evil should not be rewarded in the same way good is rewarded. That is not a fair and just system.

 

[Riverwolf]

If your saying that evil people should be allowed to live in eternal paradise, with no consequence of their evil, then that is not fair to all of the good people. If you're saying that evil people should be allowed into heaven along with the good, then heaven is no longer paradise, because it is now tainted with evil. Evil should not be rewarded in the same way good is rewarded. That is not a fair and just system.

'Course not. Then again, "fairness" isn't a word I'd use to describe life or nature, nor have I ever seen good or evil outside civilization.

Now, how is evil defined?

If we're talking about those who commit hubris, their punishment comes from the act itself. Mass murderers, rapists, etc., fine, let them be in purgatory until all the evil is no longer there, and failing that, just remove them from existence. No need for eternal torment.

But I fail to see how picking one God over another is inherently evil.

 

[captainbryce]

'Course not. Then again, "fairness" isn't a word I'd use to describe life or nature, nor have I ever seen good or evil outside civilization.

Now, how is evil defined?

I think good and evil are self evident for all mankind. And I think this has been the case ever since Adam first ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Romans 2:14-15
14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

If we're talking about those who commit hubris, their punishment comes from the act itself. Mass murderers, rapists, etc., fine, let them be in purgatory until all the evil is no longer there, and failing that, just remove them from existence. No need for eternal torment.

I didn't say they deserved eternal torment.

But I fail to see how picking one God over another is inherently evil.

I didn't say that picking one God over another is inherently evil either.

 

[Riverwolf]

I think good and evil are self evident for all mankind. And I think this has been the case ever since Adam first ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Romans 2:14-15
14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

Well, I'm afraid my experience pretty much contradicts that verse, so I'm not much inclined to regard it as true, but just Paul justifying his theology.

I didn't say they deserved eternal torment.

I didn't say that picking one God over another is inherently evil either.

Then Hell has no purpose, unless it's just like Dante's Limbo, which frankly sounds far and away more interesting than heaven because all the great thinkers of history are there, or if it's just like Hel, which is hardly paradise, but it's not torment, either.

 

[captainbryce]

Well, I'm afraid my experience pretty much contradicts that verse, so I'm not much inclined to regard it as true, but just Paul justifying his theology.

So you're saying that you don't know the difference between good and evil then? :sarcastic

Then Hell has no purpose, unless it's just like Dante's Limbo, which frankly sounds far and away more interesting than heaven because all the great thinkers of history are there, or if it's just like Hel, which is hardly paradise, but it's not torment, either.

It does have a purpose. But in order to explain it to you, I'd first have to explain what Hell is to you first (since clearly you don't know). Unfortunately, it's late and I have to get up early tomorrow for work, so until next time! :sleep:

 

[Riverwolf]

So you're saying that you don't know the difference between good and evil then? :sarcastic

I may be introverted, but I do have empathy.

It does have a purpose. But in order to explain it to you, I'd first have to explain what Hell is to you first (since clearly you don't know).

I don't know what it means to you. I know what it means to all the other Christians who've tried to explain it to me, and from what I've read in various Christian literature like The Divine Comedy and a bit of Paradise Lost. I also know that Sheol in the Tanakh refers to the grave, and that the New Testament refers to a lake of fire and the trash heap outside Jerusalem.

 

[Titanic]

What gives god the right to put people into eternal suffering for not being "perfect"? Doesn't this seem a little unfair? How is god justified in letting his own creation suffer forever? If there is a heaven with this kind of god, hell is the place for me. How can he expect people to enjoy heaven when there are people who will burn forever because of the god the worship?

The only way Hell would be justifiable, Is if it were for Serial Killers and the like. I still think it would be an overkill...

 

[ChristineES]

The only way Hell would be justifiable, Is if it were for Serial Killers and the like. I still think it would be an overkill...

Why doesn't anyone respond to we Christians who don't believe in a literal hell? Every time I state it, it is completely ignored by almost everyone. Only one person responded to it and he was a Christian. I don't worship a sadistic God.

 

[Riverwolf]

Why doesn't anyone respond to we Christians who don't believe in a literal hell? Every time I state it, it is completely ignored by almost everyone. Only one person responded to it and he was a Christian. I don't worship a sadistic God.

I think it's because whether it's believed by this or that Christian isn't really the topic at hand: it's whether the concept of a literal hell, that is, the place of eternal torment, is justified, regardless of which religion its affiliated with.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I think it's because whether it's believed by this or that Christian isn't really the topic at hand: it's whether the concept of a literal hell, that is, the place of eternal torment, is justified, regardless of which religion its affiliated with.

I think it has to go with the whole "we want to see others punished for their crimes" motif.

Especially in the U.S.

There is a focus on the punishment rather than the rehabilitation.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Of course not. Why would it? Would you?

Sure.

I mean Jesus did it for us.

 

[Rapture Era]

I think you should read through the entire thread rather than just the first post. That thread has been going on for years and no one has still been able to present a single Bible verse where Jesus explicitly says that he is God.

No I didnt read that whole thread but I did skip around. However, what I said about the first responder to the OP still stands. If you dont believe the bible is true, none of whats in it really matters, right?
As far as Jesus explicitly voicing the words He is "GOD" He doesnt. He infers it when He says "I and the Father are one" for example, which is why the Jews wanted to kill him! To them that was blasphemy! Now, either Jesus speaks the truth or he is a liar. There are some if not most here that think he is a liar. I believe he is telling the truth. If the latter is the case, whether you are offended or not, its still the truth and you are going to have to deal with it at the time of your death. All of us here, and everyone who has lived and is living on this planet at the time of our death is going to know the truth and whether what you believe was actually true or not. Would you agree?

 

[Rapture Era]

The members on this forum practice virtually dozens of faiths, belief systems, and philosophies. Many of which (most of which) do not consider Jesus to be God incarnate. In many cases the mere idea is an insult to their cultural sensibilities (mine included). So definitely not 'easy', nor logical, nor something I want preached to me when the real reason I (and every member who took the time as expected to read the forum mission statement) joined this forum is to discuss world religions, not adhere to them or be preached that I need to accept other people's opinions and beliefs for the sake of my soul.
I have my own beliefs, others have theirs. Good enough for me.

I understand what you are saying. Especially the part where those who are offended when told Jesus is God incarnate. I understand this because I am offended when there are those who say is wasnt. There is a fine line that Im sure gets crossed or bumped quite often in this type of forum because as we are discussing all of our beliefs, we say what we believe and why we believe it. Isnt that what this forum is all about? Your comment here; "not adhere to them or be preached that I need to accept other people's opinions and beliefs for the sake of my soul." Im not the one who said it. For example Jesus said the only way to heaven is through him. Im just discussing what he said and that I believe what he said. You can take that as preaching if you want but its just sharing what the bible says. If you dont believe it which is obvious, thats cool, thats your decision. All Im trying to get across, is that what ever you believe? You better be really really sure about it because at the time of our death (and we never know when that will be) eternity is a long long long time! It never ends, ever! Just sayin

 

[Philomath]

No I didnt read that whole thread but I did skip around. However, what I said about the first responder to the OP still stands. If you dont believe the bible is true, none of whats in it really matters, right?
As far as Jesus explicitly voicing the words He is "GOD" He doesnt. He infers it when He says "I and the Father are one" for example, which is why the Jews wanted to kill him! To them that was blasphemy! Now, either Jesus speaks the truth or he is a liar. There are some if not most here that think he is a liar. I believe he is telling the truth. If the latter is the case, whether you are offended or not, its still the truth and you are going to have to deal with it at the time of your death. All of us here, and everyone who has lived and is living on this planet at the time of our death is going to know the truth and whether what you believe was actually true or not. Would you agree?

There are numerous verses like this in the Bible which make it clear Jesus never said he was God.

Lu 22:42, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me;
nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."

Mr 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in
heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me.

So you choose to infer what Jesus meant rather than what Jesus actually said?
No I don't agree with you.

 

[Riverwolf]

I think it has to go with the whole "we want to see others punished for their crimes" motif.

Especially in the U.S.

There is a focus on the punishment rather than the rehabilitation.

The urge for vengeance.

 

[Rapture Era]

There are numerous verses like this in the Bible which make it clear Jesus never said he was God.

Lu 22:42, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me;
nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."

Mr 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in
heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me.

So you choose to infer what Jesus meant rather than what Jesus actually said?
No I don't agree with you.

Because he was human when he was here on earth he is saying from his human perspective. Listen, Jesus knew all about crucifixion. The Romans would crucify people and place them by the roadsides for everyone to see this gruesome and horrible suffering! In your first example, he is saying Father! Is there any other way we can accomplish the salvation of mankind than having me die that way? But then he says, not my will but yours be done. Thats why Im trying to get people to see that it was a horrible thing for both the Father and Jesus to pay the penalty for all of our sins but because He loved you and me so much, the way He did it was the only way. I dont know of any other god or gods or religious leaders saying they loved you that much! That they were willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in that way just so you could spend all of eternity in heaven! Your second example, again in his human condition certain things were kept from him. Your third example, he is telling them that the doctrine comes from God the Father, again speaking from his human condition. Be very careful not to take scrpiture out of context to make a point according to your disbelief in who Jesus really is!
And your last dig, Jesus infered to the jews what he meant. They knew what he meant. I just agree with Him!
And by the way, "All of us here, and everyone who has lived and is living on this planet at the time of our death is going to know the truth and whether what you believe was actually true or not. Would you agree?" Im asking if you agree with this statement? Do you? I have never heard of your religion "Confused" but Im starting to understand it now.