Is hell too harsh?

[Kalidas]

I believe freewill still exists even though God knows the future. His knowing the future does not change or impact the fact that each person makes choices which they are personally responsible for.

Seeing the future and knowing that a person will make bad choices does not mean God caused us to made those choices. People make choices of their own volition. I don't have the perspective that God makes one person bad and another person good. I see that God has created humanity as a whole, as families, communities, nations and everyone is interrelated. People are not isolated. If God saw in the future this person or that person who would never repent and be saved and decided to not allow their existence then It would impact whole generations where possibly millions would turn to God and be saved for eternity. So this is what I mean that I believe God looks upon humanity as a whole. Along with that, the scriptures indicate that ALL, meaning every single person, Is under bondage to sin, is not good and does wrong things, but He has provided a way for anyone to be free from this and have eternal life.

This is my perspective, of course you are free to believe in another kind of God if you wish.[/QUOTE]

Yes being able to see the future does NOT make you at fault of the outcomes. BUT being able to see the future and being all powerful and doing nothing DOES. God KNOWS whats coming and better yet has all the power to change and or make it better, and chooses not to. You will now say him altering the plan to make everyone good would break free will. I will reply by saying the original plan should have been made better thus no need to intervene would be needed and people would still be good.

this is correct we both do have different opinion on God, and I actually have no issue with this. According the the Gita Krishna says that no matter what God you worship if you do so with honesty it will all come to me. So under my very belief system your own idea of God technically is correct, for it helps YOU.

We argue a lot you and I. I just want you to know I don't dislike you and enjoy your rebuttals. I may disagree with you on MANY topics, but I respect your ability to argue in a respectful honest manner. You have my respect.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Let me answer this question with another question...
"Is Sarah Palin too unqualified to be president?"

 

[InChrist]

Yes being able to see the future does NOT make you at fault of the outcomes. BUT being able to see the future and being all powerful and doing nothing DOES. God KNOWS whats coming and better yet has all the power to change and or make it better, and chooses not to. You will now say him altering the plan to make everyone good would break free will. I will reply by saying the original plan should have been made better thus no need to intervene would be needed and people would still be good.

this is correct we both do have different opinion on God, and I actually have no issue with this. According the the Gita Krishna says that no matter what God you worship if you do so with honesty it will all come to me. So under my very belief system your own idea of God technically is correct, for it helps YOU.

We argue a lot you and I. I just want you to know I don't dislike you and enjoy your rebuttals. I may disagree with you on MANY topics, but I respect your ability to argue in a respectful honest manner. You have my respect.

Thank you, lemaster13.

Yes, I am of the perspective that God being all wise and all-knowing designed things to be the way they are to ensure freewill so that His created beings would be more than mere robots. So I believe His design is planned to perfection. We as limited finite beings simply don't see the whole scheme of things as He does.

I realize we disagree, but I have never disliked you either and I always appreciate hearing your thoughts. I know that in God's sight you are valuable and special and I consider you a very sincere person. I truly respect you and enjoy our conversations, also.

Have a blessed night.

 

[chinu]

What gives god the right to put people into eternal suffering for not being "perfect"? Doesn't this seem a little unfair? How is god justified in letting his own creation suffer forever? If there is a heaven with this kind of god, hell is the place for me. How can he expect people to enjoy heaven when there are people who will burn forever because of the god the worship?

I think you must also ask.. What gives God the right to be a God ?

 

[Rapture Era]

As a Christian, I don't believe in any "eternal furnace".

Really? What do you believe in for those that die with out Christ?

 

[ChristineES]

Really? What do you believe in for those that die with out Christ?

I believe that no one knows that except God. And don't quote the verse "no one comes to the father but by me", I've heard that many times.

If I had to make a choice I would say that people can be "separated" from God. Why do you believe in an eternal oven? Any time fire is mention it's symbolic. And the words translated into hell can also mean "the grave".

That's all I want to say about it. I don't debate this with Christians because my fellow Christians can get rather passionate about this debate.

 

[Rapture Era]

Lemaster 13, I really enjoyed reading your post. I would like to comment on a couple of things in your response that was interesting to me. I agree with much of what you said but would like to share a different perspective on a few things if I could.

Seeing the future and knowing that a person will make bad choices does not mean God caused us to made those choices. People make choices of their own volition. I don't have the perspective that God makes one person bad and another person good. I see that God has created humanity as a whole, as families, communities, nations and everyone is interrelated. People are not isolated. If God saw in the future this person or that person who would never repent and be saved and decided to not allow their existence then It would impact whole generations (Interesting side note: Literally thousands of things had to take place in order for you to be born. The mothers and fathers in your family tree had to get together at the exact time that they did. If one of your ancestors went childless? You would not exsist!) where possibly millions would turn to God and be saved for eternity. So this is what I mean that I believe God looks upon humanity as a whole. Along with that, the scriptures indicate that ALL, meaning every single person, Is under bondage to sin, is not good and does wrong things, but He has provided a way for anyone to be free from this and have eternal life.

This is my perspective, of course you are free to believe in another kind of God if you wish.

Yes being able to see the future does NOT make you at fault of the outcomes. BUT being able to see the future and being all powerful and doing nothing DOES. God KNOWS whats coming and better yet has all the power to change and or make it better, and chooses not to. You will now say him altering the plan to make everyone good would break free will. I will reply by saying the original plan should have been made better thus no need to intervene would be needed and people would still be good.
Forgive me, I will try to make this as short as possible and still get my point or perspective across, hopefully. In the very beginning God gave man free will and the ability to choose right from wrong. God in essence says, I have created a unique world, Eden, whats unique about it? Everything here goes according to my plan. Im going to give you two choices, either you live my way or you want to live your own way. This thought really becomes evident when our kids become teenagers! We blame Adam and Eve for bringing sin into the world thereby infecting all of human kind so to speak. But its not just about Adam and Eve exclusivley. Everyone of us, every day says you know God, thanks but no thanks, we want to decide for ourselves whats good and whats evil and should we do it or not. So God says, alright, if thats what you want, to say freedom, then you have to live in a world in which freedom can operate. And quite honestly, a world in which freedom can operate has to be a world with laws. You cant live in a world where God is constantly interveining with miracles because then your free will actions would not have any predictable consequences. So in order for your free will actions to have predictable consequences and freedom to mean something you have to live in a world in which things can be predicted, which operates by laws. You cant blame God for the holocaust, God didnt do it, Hitler did, the Nazi's did it, and they did it because they wanted to. They exercised their free will to do something terrible. Free will can be used for good and it can be used for evil. God could stop it, but in order for that to happen God would have to take away or block humans in their exercise of free will and since God made us in His image, and part of that is, we get to be creators, free, like God. Thats why God doesnt intervene to prevent moral evil. We also have to realize that our view of things is quite limited. We dont have Gods eye view. Much like our children dont have an adults eye view on life. So when we say, if we were God we could have done much better, Im not so sure.

this is correct we both do have different opinion on God, and I actually have no issue with this. According the the Gita Krishna says that no matter what God you worship if you do so with honesty it will all come to me. So under my very belief system your own idea of God technically is correct, for it helps YOU.

We argue a lot you and I. I just want you to know I don't dislike you and enjoy your rebuttals. I may disagree with you on MANY topics, but I respect your ability to argue in a respectful honest manner. You have my respect.[/quote]

 

[Rapture Era]

I believe that no one knows that except God. And don't quote the verse "no one comes to the father but by me", I've heard that many times.
I wasnt going to, Im not sure why you mentioned that verse. That only refers to the fact that Jesus is telling people that the only way to Heaven is through Him and not any other belief system. Of course we are all free to believe whatever we want. We tell our kids, dont put you hand on that pretty blue flame. You are gonna get hurt really bad! They say, you dont know what you are talking about. You say, okaaaaaa . . . . . . . . . The bottom line after all is said and done, after all the debates and arguments, after all of those who want to gain an upper hand with their intelligence and philosophies and linguistics, when we die, none of all that stuff will matter! You will find out if what you believed was true or not. Problem is, if you were wrong and there is a firey hell? You cant jump back over to the other side, you have already made your choice and now eternity in this horrible place is your reality. My question has always been, wouldnt it be worth at least looking at what Jesus has to offer? What He sacrificed for you because He loves you that much? I have never heard or read anything from any other religion, religion leader or someones god or gods besides the one true living God who has loved us so much that He did what He did to save us from an eternity in hell. I dont know why there is such a hate for someone who was willing to die for you and me so that we could live in Heaven for ever and ever.
If I had to make a choice I would say that people can be "separated" from God. Why do you believe in an eternal oven? Any time fire is mention it's symbolic. And the words translated into hell can also mean "the grave". Yes but not here! Here are a couple of verses that comes to mind:

Matthew 13:50
... throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (NLT)
Revelation 20:15
And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire. (NLT)
But God also says this in the book of 2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
He doesnt want anyone to end up in hell! He provided a way for everyone to not go there but they wont listen. They dont want the free gift Dont blame God for anyone going to hell! He provided a way out, and its up to all of us to either accept:angel2: or reject:fight:, its that simple!

That's all I want to say about it. I don't debate this with Christians because my fellow Christians can get rather passionate about this debate.

Just curious my friend. Im not looking for an argument or heated debate.

 

[ChristineES]

Just curious my friend. I'm not looking for an argument or heated debate.

You could have fooled me. I don't want to debate you on this. I have read all the books in the Christians scriptures over and over again many, many times. I've done studies, as well. I've been a Christian for 30 years this month so I don't really need a sermon on the subject, with all due respect, I've heard better from John Hagee and Billy Graham. (Sorry, just kidding)

The use of the word "furnace" is rather symbolic, it is about the separation of God. That is the way I have seen it for at least 15 years now. I don't want to go on further- I am not good at sermons.

And the reason I mentioned "that verse" is because whenever I give my opinion on these matters, someone always recites it to me, as if I've never heard it before.
I am a Christian, same as you. With the exception of a literal hell, I'd say I share the same beliefs as most other Christians.

God bless, brother.

 

[Luke Morningstar]

I agree hell was created for the devil and fallen angels. God desires every human to spend eternity with Him in eternal joy. So from my perspective I see two choices before each person... continue to follow satan to his eternal destination or take God's alternative route to heaven.

The same two choices. Expand, open yourself to love and compassion and reason, expand outward towards heaven. Or contract, restrict ourselves, close our minds, build barriers, close connection, hoard ideas, shrinking every smaller, inward, and into hell. I've been there, it's horrible.

I agree with everything you said. Hell was created simply by being separated from God. Our actions determine the path, and will guide future generations. Focus on control, punishment, and harm? We give power to hell and encourage others to do more of those things. Focus on compassion, forgiveness, and healing? Then we encourage those things in others and give power to joy and peace.

We humans do as we are told and do as we see done very often. Heaven and hell are not locations, they are paths. Sometimes we feel we have no choice, but the secret of our power is that we always have some choice, they're just rarely easy choices.

Hell is our past, holding onto it, seeking it, relishing in the animal need to survive. Heaven could be our future, harmony, peace, and working together in a way that's only possible with active, conscious thought.

 

[Rapture Era]

You could have fooled me. I don't want to debate you on this. I have read all the books in the Christians scriptures over and over again many, many times. I've done studies, as well. I've been a Christian for 30 years this month so I don't really need a sermon on the subject, with all due respect, I've heard better from John Hagee and Billy Graham. (Sorry, just kidding)

The use of the word "furnace" is rather symbolic, it is about the separation of God. That is the way I have seen it for at least 15 years now. I don't want to go on further- I am not good at sermons.

And the reason I mentioned "that verse" is because whenever I give my opinion on these matters, someone always recites it to me, as if I've never heard it before.
I am a Christian, same as you. With the exception of a literal hell, I'd say I share the same beliefs as most other Christians.

God bless, brother.

Sorry, didnt mean to preach and didnt mean to sound like I was looking for a debate. It was for others that may have not known what the verse meant and what we were talking about. Look forward to talking with you again!

 

[ChristineES]

Sorry, didnt mean to preach and didnt mean to sound like I was looking for a debate. It was for others that may have not known what the verse meant and what we were talking about. Look forward to talking with you again!

Welcome to the RF.

 

[Twig pentagram]

IMO, :yes:

 

[Rapture Era]

IMO, :yes:

I took a double-take when I saw this on your post,
I don't believe in holy deities but I fear them.
Why would you fear something you dont believe in?

 

[captainbryce]

What gives god the right to put people into eternal suffering for not being "perfect"?

First of all, the fact that he is God gives him the right. Secondly, NOBODY is perfect, but nobody is put into eternal suffering for "not being perfect". That's not even what the bible says, so you're just wrong.

Doesn't this seem a little unfair? How is god justified in letting his own creation suffer forever?

I think it's fair that he gives us the choice.

If there is a heaven with this kind of god, hell is the place for me. How can he expect people to enjoy heaven when there are people who will burn forever because of the god the worship?

We won't remember the wicked when we are in heaven, nor do we want them in heaven. I think it's totally fair and appropriate for God to separate the wicked from the righteous. Do you think it's fair that people who are evil should be given the same reward as people who are good? What kind of God rewards evil with eternal paradise? I find that idea sick personally!

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

First of all, the fact that he is God gives him the right. Secondly, NOBODY is perfect, but nobody is put into eternal suffering for "not being perfect". That's not even what the bible says, so you're just wrong.

I think it's fair that he gives us the choice.

We won't remember the wicked when we are in heaven, nor do we want them in heaven. I think it's totally fair and appropriate for God to separate the wicked from the righteous. Do you think it's fair that people who are evil should be given the same reward as people who are good? What kind of God rewards evil with eternal paradise? I find that idea sick personally!

Well if given an opportunity to give someone else who was wicked your spot in heaven would you do it?

 

[rusra02]

What gives god the right to put people into eternal suffering for not being "perfect"? Doesn't this seem a little unfair? How is god justified in letting his own creation suffer forever? If there is a heaven with this kind of god, hell is the place for me. How can he expect people to enjoy heaven when there are people who will burn forever because of the god the worship?

I believe Jehovah, the true God, does not torment people in a fiery hell. Such a concept is contrary to God's personality and his love. (1 John 4:8) The Bible teaches that "The wages sin pays is death", not eternal torment (Romans 6:23). The word hellfire is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word Gehenna. Jesus used this term to signify everlasting destruction, not torment. (Matthew 10:28) The teaching of Hellfire is a scurrilous slander against the true God, IMO.

 

[Rapture Era]

I am so glad I don't worship your sadistic deity anymore This entire post is disgusting.

Which one do you worship?

 

[Ashoka]

Which one do you worship?

I worship God, I just don't believe that God would torture people and show a lack of compassion for people because they didn't worship him enough or believe in him. Not believing doesn't make you "wicked."

I could go on a huge spiel about this, but probably best I don't. lol.

It's this line that ticked me off the most, though:

We won't remember the wicked when we are in heaven, nor do we want them in heaven.

The lack of compassion is simply astounding. Such prideful arrogance that this Yahweh has, and to teach it to his followers, even worse.

 

[ChristineES]

I believe Jehovah, the true God, does not torment people in a fiery hell. Such a concept is contrary to God's personality and his love. (1 John 4:8) The Bible teaches that "The wages sin pays is death", not eternal torment (Romans 6:23). The word hellfire is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word Gehenna. Jesus used this term to signify everlasting destruction, not torment. (Matthew 10:28) The teaching of Hellfire is a scurrilous slander against the true God, IMO.

This is similar to what I believe, mostly.