Is hell too harsh?

[Ouroboros]

Yeah, how bout the ones who want to kill you for not believing the same way they do! Their a loving bunch!

Huh?:areyoucra

I never wanted to kill anyone for believing different than me. Neither do I know anyone who wanted to. But I've read about it in history class, and the Christians don't have a very good track record when it comes to this. They're just as much at fault killing people of other faiths as anyone else. I think it's wrong when people do it. So I can't see how this is a defense for your God image. Killing people because they don't believe what you believe is immoral and wrong. So if God does it, it's still immoral and wrong. And that's why Hell is an immoral and wrong idea.

 

[Rapture Era]

Why am I responsible for someone else's actions? There's nothing fair about that.

The way I see it, this point of view basically amounts to god holding a gun to your head saying "believe in me, praise and worship me, do what I tell you to do, or suffer in hell for all eternity." Am I really making a choice there?

Of course you have a choice! Just like you have a choice to kill or not kill another person and end up in prison for the rest of your life or the death penalty. A lot of people make choices based on the consequences! I dont think I will go 90 mph here because if I get caught, I'll go to jail! We are subjected to rules and laws. Even the ones we dont like. I think its unfair that a cop will write you a ticket for not signaling 100 feet before the stop sign! But if a cop wants to, he can write that ticket and it will stick because its the law and I broke the law! Whether I think a rule or law is right or not its there for a reason and it would be in my best interest to obey it. I didnt create the universe or the earth or the life on it. I didnt have to deal with satan and his rebellion before he was cast out of heaven and down to earth. I didnt make up the laws that exsist in our world, God did. It doesnt matter if I agree or not with His ways. He clearly states, His ways are not our ways. Our childrens ways are not our ways and they think we are unfair even though they do not understand our view. They can disagree and not like it but we as parents have their best intrests at heart! Sure you have a choice. You know, its amazing to me how many people just park on the negative of reality of hell. Has anyone at all considered what God had to sacrifice because of His love for you to keep you safe for all eternity? No no no, lets talk about how mean he is for creating hell for satan and his demons. Lets not talk about what satan did and what he is doing to pull you down with him into eternal destruction! What do you think eternal destruction is? Well whatever it is do you want to be apart of that for ever and ever and ever? Really?

 

[Ouroboros]

Glad to know I'm not the only one!

I think it's very wrong too.

A serial killer can spend an eternity in heaven for just becoming a believer, while an atheist (or other non-believe of the "special" religion) who wouldn't hurt a fly is spending an eternity in torture. It's not right.

 

[Riverwolf]

Of course you have a choice! Just like you have a choice to kill or not kill another person and end up in prison for the rest of your life or the death penalty. A lot of people make choices based on the consequences! I dont think I will go 90 mph here because if I get caught, I'll go to jail! We are subjected to rules and laws. Even the ones we dont like. I think its unfair that a cop will write you a ticket for not signaling 100 feet before the stop sign! But if a cop wants to, he can write that ticket and it will stick because its the law and I broke the law! Whether I think a rule or law is right or not its there for a reason and it would be in my best interest to obey it. I didnt create the universe or the earth or the life on it. I didnt have to deal with satan and his rebellion before he was cast out of heaven and down to earth. I didnt make up the laws that exsist in our world, God did. It doesnt matter if I agree or not with His ways. He clearly states, His ways are not our ways. Our childrens ways are not our ways and they think we are unfair even though they do not understand our view. They can disagree and not like it but we as parents have their best intrests at heart! Sure you have a choice. You know, its amazing to me just how many people just park on the negative of reality of hell. Has anyone at all considered what God had to sacrifice because of His love for you to keep you safe for all eternity? No no no, lets talk about how mean he is for creating hell for satan and his demons. Lets not talk about what satan did and what he is doing to pull you down with him into eternal destruction! What do you think eternal destruction is? Whatever it is do you ant to be apart of that for ever and ever and ever? Really?

God can't sacrifice, because he lacks nothing.

Besides, the justifications for our human laws are observable for those who wish to look, and typically involve having arbitrary consequences for harming another human being, either intentionally or unintentionally.

What possible harm is there in believing in other Gods?

 

[Ouroboros]

I personally think that the whole "believe or else" theology is nothing but a catch-rule for a societal group. To keep the group together and not stray to other competing religions, groups, families, lands, etc, just scare them to stay. Our Hell is worse than theirs, so if you break the ties with our society, you will be punished, so stay! It's a way of hooking people to the addiction. A true, free, good religion/faith/belief/spirituality is free, personal, individual, no ties... If it has ties, there's something fundamentally wrong. God can make himself known to each and everyone of us without a dictatorship or regulations with enforcement. A good God will get followers because of his goodness, not because he's scary.

 

[Rapture Era]

God can't sacrifice, because he lacks nothing.

Besides, the justifications for our human laws are observable for those who wish to look, and typically involve having arbitrary consequences for harming another human being, either intentionally or unintentionally.

What possible harm is there in believing in other Gods?

Hold that thought!

 

[SkepticThinker]

Of course you have a choice! Just like you have a choice to kill or not kill another person and end up in prison for the rest of your life or the death penalty. A lot of people make choices based on the consequences! I dont think I will go 90 mph here because if I get caught, I'll go to jail! We are subjected to rules and laws. Even the ones we dont like. I think its unfair that a cop will write you a ticket for not signaling 100 feet before the stop sign! But if a cop wants to, he can write that ticket and it will stick because its the law and I broke the law! Whether I think a rule or law is right or not its there for a reason and it would be in my best interest to obey it. I didnt create the universe or the earth or the life on it. I didnt have to deal with satan and his rebellion before he was cast out of heaven and down to earth. I didnt make up the laws that exsist in our world, God did. It doesnt matter if I agree or not with His ways. He clearly states, His ways are not our ways. Our childrens ways are not our ways and they think we are unfair even though they do not understand our view. They can disagree and not like it but we as parents have their best intrests at heart! Sure you have a choice.

"Believe in me and do what I say or face eternal punishment" isn't really a choice.
If a man is holding a gun to my head telling me to give him all my money or he'll kill me, am I really making a choice to give him my money? I don't think so.

My decision to kill or not kill another person isn't comparable to what I'm saying, imo.

I guess the difference is, I wouldn't treat my children the way the Christian god treats his. I wouldn't lock my kids in the basement for their entire lives because they didn't do what I said.

You know, its amazing to me how many people just park on the negative of reality of hell. Has anyone at all considered what God had to sacrifice because of His love for you to keep you safe for all eternity? No no no, lets talk about how mean he is for creating hell for satan and his demons. Lets not talk about what satan did and what he is doing to pull you down with him into eternal destruction! What do you think eternal destruction is? Well whatever it is do you want to be apart of that for ever and ever and ever? Really?

What exactly has your god had to sacrifice for anyone?

Sorry, but I think if someone creates infinite suffering, he/she/it should be held accountable for it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think it's very wrong too.

A serial killer can spend an eternity in heaven for just becoming a believer, while an atheist (or other non-believe of the "special" religion) who wouldn't hurt a fly is spending an eternity in torture. It's not right.

Exactly. What on earth is moral or just about that????

 

[Rapture Era]

Huh?:areyoucra

I never wanted to kill anyone for believing different than me. Neither do I know anyone who wanted to. But I've read about it in history class, and the Christians don't have a very good track record when it comes to this. They're just as much at fault killing people of other faiths as anyone else. I think it's wrong when people do it. So I can't see how this is a defense for your God image. Killing people because they don't believe what you believe is immoral and wrong. So if God does it, it's still immoral and wrong. And that's why Hell is an immoral and wrong idea.

I was taking about this statement "Probably because it's more fun to read about the wacky ones instead of the reasonable ones. I'm certain this is the case for any religious or non-religious group."

 

[Ouroboros]

Exactly. What on earth is moral or just about that????

Agree. It simply is not.

Or consider the problem of those who never heard about the "Right Belief(tm)". Some suggest that if you never heard about it, God will give you a special treatment, different than from whose who heard but rejected. But the problem is, if you're better off not hearing about the "Right Belief(tm)" because of the special treatment, then no one should ever share or evangelize about the "Right Belief(tm)"! Did that make sense?

Let me rephrase it.

Let's have a religion that consider itself the right one and everyone has to hear about it to be saved from Hell. If someone hears about it but rejects it, he or she will go to Hell. However, if you don't hear about it and die in ignorance, God will give you a special privilege to skip the judgment because you never had a chance to choose. Now, that means that hearing about it and having a 50/50 chance of rejecting it is a worse option than never to hear about it at all. Your chance of salvation is 100% if you don't hear about it, and only 50 if you do. So let's not spread the "good news" for God's sake!

 

[Ouroboros]

I was taking about this statement "Probably because it's more fun to read about the wacky ones instead of the reasonable ones. I'm certain this is the case for any religious or non-religious group."

Ok.

My point with that statement was to compare reasonable Christians with unreasonable (fundamentalist, extremist) Christians. The news media loves to spread news about the crazy ones over the mild mannered and nice ones. Westboro Baptists will get a headliner while the local Episcopalians charity will earn a note on page 6.

And to be fair, this goes for any religion, and even for non-religious groups. A crazy atheist has a better chance to land a headliner than the quiet and moderate one next door.

So yes, if you have someone killing someone else for not having the same belief, it will get the spotlight on it. And it's unfortunate, but it's how media and news works. People love the drama. I rarely ever watch news anymore personally though. So the "it's more fun" part is not really referring to my own reading of news, but on what is true in general. Most news readers thrive on the spectacular and overlook the ordinary.

 

[Brynhild]

"Believe in me and do what I say or face eternal punishment" isn't really a choice.
If a man is holding a gun to my head telling me to give him all my money or he'll kill me, am I really making a choice to give him my money? I don't think so.

My decision to kill or not kill another person isn't comparable to what I'm saying, imo.

I guess the difference is, I wouldn't treat my children the way the Christian god treats his. I wouldn't lock my kids in the basement for their entire lives because they didn't do what I said.



What exactly has your god had to sacrifice for anyone?

Sorry, but I think if someone creates infinite suffering, he/she/it should be held accountable for it.

Good point. Why are people even still worshipping this god?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Good point. Why are people even still worshipping this god?

That's what I want to know.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Agree. It simply is not.

Or consider the problem of those who never heard about the "Right Belief(tm)". Some suggest that if you never heard about it, God will give you a special treatment, different than from whose who heard but rejected. But the problem is, if you're better off not hearing about the "Right Belief(tm)" because of the special treatment, then no one should ever share or evangelize about the "Right Belief(tm)"! Did that make sense?

Let me rephrase it.

Let's have a religion that consider itself the right one and everyone has to hear about it to be saved from Hell. If someone hears about it but rejects it, he or she will go to Hell. However, if you don't hear about it and die in ignorance, God will give you a special privilege to skip the judgment because you never had a chance to choose. Now, that means that hearing about it and having a 50/50 chance of rejecting it is a worse option than never to hear about it at all. Your chance of salvation is 100% if you don't hear about it, and only 50 if you do. So let's not spread the "good news" for God's sake!

I like that!

I've thought about this one too. You're far better off not knowing anything at all about it. This is one of the reasons why I say that Christianity is not a system of morality.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

That's what I want to know.

Not all take the Bible Literally or even Believe in Hell.

To some, we find the bible as mans attempt at understanding God and making sense of the world. The individual books giving a glimpse into those attempts as well as the failures.

 

[Ouroboros]

I like that!

I've thought about this one too. You're far better off not knowing anything at all about it. This is one of the reasons why I say that Christianity is not a system of morality.

At least not in the strict or fundamentalist form. I think you can find good things in the Christian message, and the focal points should be those good things, and reject the things that are outdated and immoral.

For instance, forgiveness is a very strong message in Christianity. It's better and more powerful than the message of love.

Forgive as God forgave you. That's the message, and it was sent before Jesus supposed death. If you can forgive people's transgressions, your blood pressure will decrease, you will have less drama, you will be more content with life, and so on... And now you can learn how to love too.

I don't think the original message from Jesus was "I will die. Believe in me. Then God will forgive you." But rather, God has already forgiven you. Come back home. And home is not Christianity specifically, but you being in harmony with Nature. The kingdom of God is within you...

 

[Rapture Era]

"Believe in me and do what I say or face eternal punishment" isn't really a choice.
Of course its a choice.
If a man is holding a gun to my head telling me to give him all my money or he'll kill me, am I really making a choice to give him my money? I don't think so.
Arent you? Are you saying that at that moment you are unable to make a choice? Can you choose not to give him the money? Of course you can. He might kill you but you can make that choice can you not?

My decision to kill or not kill another person isn't comparable to what I'm saying, imo.
How about the traffic law, would that be a nicer choice selection? The point is, whether you like it or not, whether you think its fair or not, you didnt make up the rules. It is what it is. You can kick and scream all you want but it doesnt change the law.

I guess the difference is, I wouldn't treat my children the way the Christian god treats his. I wouldn't lock my kids in the basement for their entire lives because they didn't do what I said.
And so how does the Christian God treat His children? Im one of his children. Do you care to tell me how He treats me?

What exactly has your god had to sacrifice for anyone?
He left His heavenly place, was born a human being, was tortured, and beaten beyond recognition and was nailed to a cross. At the time, it was the most cruel, horrifying, agonizing and humiliating death know to exsist. And he sacrificed himself in that way because he loved you and knew that it was the only way, the shedding of his blood was the only payment for our sin that would satisfy the Father. Thats what he sacrificed for you and everyone! There is your answer.

Sorry, but I think if someone creates infinite suffering, he/she/it should be held accountable for it.

Does his sacrifice and love mean nothing to you?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Does his sacrifice and love mean nothing to you?

Just to let you know the response is simply:

"he came back to life" The death experienced was temporary. The sins taken on by Jesus were brought to Hell and at point purified there, because if not how else could Jesus return?.

Because if Jesus died with all those sins, it was either

1. The sins were purified from Jesus (in which case given it was the sins of the whole world, the amount of time any of us will spend in hell will be extremely short).

2. That death is our punishment and once we die that is it, the sins don't follow us to the after world.

3. Or That once we die that is it, and your belief in Jesus is what brings you back into a new world.

But the Sacrifice in and of itself, was to take the pain of the world and die, but the act of being resurrected which was a guarantee, makes the sacrifice easier to deal with no?

 

[Titanic]

Why doesn't anyone respond to we Christians who don't believe in a literal hell? Every time I state it, it is completely ignored by almost everyone. Only one person responded to it and he was a Christian. I don't worship a sadistic God.

You do realize your going against your own religion by not believing in a literal Hell?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Not all take the Bible Literally or even Believe in Hell.

To some, we find the bible as mans attempt at understanding God and making sense of the world. The individual books giving a glimpse into those attempts as well as the failures.

To me, that's a far more reasonable way of looking at it.