Is Hinduism a religion

[Gaura Priya]

I dunno... I just find that people can understand their varna by looking at their own qualities.

Does a person have an easy time reading books and philosophy? Is ey a scientist, or a religionist, who can easily talk of God? Can ey fit a clerical or pastoral role in regards to theology and metaphysics? Does memorisation come easily to em? Teachers naturally fall under the idea of brahmana or brahminical qualities.

Does a person get angry very easily? Does ey fulfill roles of administrative or governmental duties? Is ey a born leader who naturally takes charge and goes forward with expertise? Kings, presidents, government officials, police, and other roles of societal importance fall under kshatriya.

Is one mercantile? Does ey have a business mentality? Is ey innovative, inventive, clever? Ey acquires practical knowledge and can apply them to help aid in economic boosts. Very good with money, they are able to sustain businesses. Business owners, agriculturalists and farmers, and marketers fall easily under vaishya varna.

Does one do service and do other hard labour, or manual labour? Does ey work hard for the benefit of others, and can work with eir hands? Then one is a shudra.


Of course, such classification is simplistic, but according to my brainwash of Gaudiya Vaishnava teachings, everyone in Kali-yuga is a shudra, and that no one, since Krishna's departure from this world 5,000 years ago, is a kshatriya or a brahmana in truth.

I just immediately think of the example of Karna... even though he was raised by a non-kshatriya, he displayed traits of a kshatriya.

 

[kaisersose]

Of course, such classification is simplistic, but according to my brainwash of Gaudiya Vaishnava teachings, everyone in Kali-yuga is a shudra, and that no one, since Krishna's departure from this world 5,000 years ago, is a kshatriya or a brahmana in truth.

What about Chaitanya and Prabhupada? What varna would you attribute to them?

It was my understanding (and I could be wrong) that most Hare Krishnas consider themselves Brahmanas. But not all....I recall one website posting an article on how the Vaishnava is superior to a Brahmana.

 

[kaisersose]

So what about people born without a clear varNa? E.g. people born in the USA or Europe.

Mlechhas

Or Sikhs, a Singh or Kaur returning to Hinduism without knowing their varNa?
What about orphans e.g. a baby in India found abandoned in front of a mandir with no markings?

Actually, the Varna is upheld (by virtue of Gotras) mainly by Brahmanas and not others. An orphan will assume the Varna of the family it gets adopted into. We are of course, walking the thin line between varna and caste.

 

[Riverwolf]

I think sometimes forums cause a kind of internet blindenss where I ask questions without looking else where first . I just searched for it and here is a link with some info (not sure of its validity):

VEDIC ASTROLOGY: VARNA

1) BRAHMIN VARNA : Person whose Birth Rashi is Cancer or Scorpio or Pisces is considered Brahmin by Varna in Hindu Vedic Astrology .

2) KSHATRIYA VARNA : Person whose Birth Rashi is Aries or Leo or Sagittarius is considered Kshatriya by Varna in Hindu Vedic Astrology.

3) VAISHYA VARNA: Person whose Birth Rashi is Taurus or Virgo or Capricorn is considered Vaishya by Varna in Hindu Vedic Astrology.

4) SHUDRA VARNA : Person whose Birth Rashi is Gemini or Libra or Aquarius is considered Shudra by Varna in Hindu Vedic Astrology.

That's quite funny. ^_^

By this, I'm a Vaishya, and my girlfriend is a Shudra. Thing is, she has a warrior mindset, while I seem to have elements of all four Varnas.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Onkara,

The word BRAHMIN means one who has knowledge of Brahman.
However could you possible do a bit more research to match the DOB and if the fall in the same rashis as mentioned.

Love & rgds

 

[Gaura Priya]

What about Chaitanya and Prabhupada? What varna would you attribute to them?

It was my understanding (and I could be wrong) that most Hare Krishnas consider themselves Brahmanas. But not all....I recall one website posting an article on how the Vaishnava is superior to a Brahmana.

In all of this discussion, varna ultimately is given up. From what I have considered, varna has no true importance in spiritual life according to Ramanujacharya, and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu could be considered a 'brahmana' in His day, but He said that He was not a sannyasi, nor a vanaprastha, nor a grhastha, nor a brahmachari; He was neither a brahmana, a kshatriya, a vaishya or shudra. Rather, He was a servant of the servant of the Krishna's servant.

I am not directly part of ISKCON and do not consider myself part of the organisation per se, although I do gain some wisdom from Srila Prabhupada. Not all 'Hare Krishnas' are followers of Prabhupada. I was originally from SCS math (Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math) founded by Srila Sridhar Maharaj, until my ex-boyfriend forced me to leave my matha to be part of ISKCON.

Now I am matha free... at least for now.

What from what I can understand, Prabhupada envisioned somehow that he could reestablish the spiritual essence of braminical culture, and make his ISKCON society that of brahmanas and kshatriyas. Countless purports and commentaries of his speak of this restablishment of Varnashrama system. But Prabhupada taught that in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, everyone is a shudra in this age... no one is qualified to perform the brahminical sacrifices or the kshatriyic charities that are described at various lengths in the Scriptures.

In SCS Math, we were taught that a Vaishnava goes beyond both varna and ashrama, and thus such classifications are only limited to cultural Hinduism.

 

[kaisersose]

In all of this discussion, varna ultimately is given up. From what I have considered, varna has no true importance in spiritual life according to Ramanujacharya, and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

That is exactly my thought on the subject as well. I fail to see its relevance from any angle which makes me wonder why it is of such interest.

Now I am matha free... at least for now.

What from what I can understand, Prabhupada envisioned somehow that he could reestablish the spiritual essence of braminical culture, and make his ISKCON society that of brahmanas and kshatriyas. Countless purports and commentaries of his speak of this restablishment of Varnashrama system. But Prabhupada taught that in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, everyone is a shudra in this age... no one is qualified to perform the brahminical sacrifices or the kshatriyic charities that are described at various lengths in the Scriptures.

I do not understand why he was trying to establish such a system. How was it supposed to make things better?

In SCS Math, we were taught that a Vaishnava goes beyond both varna and ashrama, and thus such classifications are only limited to cultural Hinduism.

I would say the concept of Varna (by occupation, duties, etc) is largely irrelevant in cultural Hinduism as well. It may have made some sense in the past, when knowledge and craft was kept inside the family or clan. The sculptor's son would be a sculptor, the fisherman's son would be a fisherman and so on. But this is very outdated and we should be wary of trying to retain obsolete practices which have no value add.

We do have the concept of caste that kicks in for marriages, etc., but that is a different story.

 

[atanu]

So what about people born without a clear varNa? E.g. people born in the USA or Europe.
Or Sikhs, a Singh or Kaur returning to Hinduism without knowing their varNa?
What about orphans e.g. a baby in India found abandoned in front of a mandir with no markings?

Varna is a spiritual concept whereas its applications as enumerated in Hindu dharma shastras are cultural and time specific -- for the specific purpose of completeing the duties, spiritual and secular. I cannot say that Einstein and Hitler had similar varna. Can I? To be specific, for Brahmins, the tasks that are stipulated by dharma shastra are hardly followed. So, can a Brahmin of birth be called a Brahmin by dharma shastra? I have doubts.

Thus it is said that in kali, when sacrifices as stipulated in Vedas are not performed, everyone is shudra.

 

[atanu]

In all of this discussion, varna ultimately is given up. From what I have considered, varna has no true importance in spiritual life according to Ramanujacharya, and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu could be considered a 'brahmana' in His day, but He said that He was not a sannyasi, nor a vanaprastha, nor a grhastha, nor a brahmachari; He was neither a brahmana, a kshatriya, a vaishya or shudra. Rather, He was a servant of the servant of the Krishna's servant.

It is peculiar. WE want to follow Shri Krishna yet we do not agree to Him. Varna is instituted bt Him. Veda says that varna is directly from purusha.

For an atiasrAmi -- one who is beyond all stations of life (asramas), one who is a true renunciate, one who is jnani, one who is truly surrendered -- for such varna does not mean any thing. They are above varna. They have no veil left. They have no covering over Atma.

But for us common people, the tasks appropriate to our gunas and station in life must be performed. Gita is clear about that: Doing one's alloted task without ego feeling and dedicating the fruits to Bhagwan is karma yoga. Hankering after another's job is not.

Applicabilty of Karma Yoga in the present time is the application of varna. And applicabilty of karma yoga is the easiest way that we have. Since we are not able to do yagna. Neither we are able to do meditation.

 

[atanu]

Brihadaraynaka U.

2.4.6. 'Whosoever looks for the Brahman-class elsewhere than in the Self, was abandoned by the Brahman-class. Whosoever looks for the Kshatra-class elsewhere than in the Self, was abandoned by the Kshatra-class. Whosoever looks for the worlds elsewhere than in the Self, was abandoned by the worlds. Whosoever looks for the Devas elsewhere than in the Self, was abandoned by the Devas. Whosoever looks for creatures elsewhere than in the Self, was abandoned by the creatures. Whosoever looks for anything elsewhere than in the Self, was abandoned by everything. This Brahman-class, this Kshatra-class, these worlds, these Devas, these creatures, this everything, all is that Self.

 

[atanu]

Mlechhas

Mleccha is not a varna. Mleccha means one who does not know sanskrit. By that I am a mleccha. I do not know about others.

 

[kaisersose]

According to Gandhi, "Among the saints of revered memory, Sena was a barber, Sajana was a butcher, Gora a potter, Raidas a cobbler, Chokhamala an untouchable, Tukaram a kumbi and so on. None disclaimed his hereditary function but worked his salvation through detached prayerful performance of it." [The Gospel of Selfless Action]

Where does he classify them as Brahmanas?

Examples of SatyakAma and Vidura come to mind immediately from scriptures. . Swami Vivekananda in modern India.There are others

Jabala's Guru decided he was a Brahmana (by birth). Vidura was never a Brahmana.

Does not different parts of human body carry out different functions? The universe is stratification itself. The world will always have varNa, whether you like it or not

I am sorry, but I do not get what you are saying here.

That will depend on what you understand varna to be.

Varna as found in the Gita and the Manu Smriti.

The SatyakAma story from Upanishad shows that although normally varNa is linked with birth, but whenever a proof of good intention and good character is available, varNa considerations are transcended. It only shows that the system is not rigid. The truth of any issue is more important.

I do not see the system compromised in the case of Jabala. Jabala did not know his gotra, but since he spoke the truth, his Guru determined he had a Brahmana gotra.

Again, I would like you to be specific about what the role of Varna in today's life is? Especially, the assumed kind where one's Varna is determined by factors other than birth.

As an example, let us take the case of a devout Western Hindu - Joe.

0. Who (X) determines Joe's varna? What qualifies X to make these determinations?
1. What is the role of Varna in Joe's life?
2. What are the changes it brings about?
3. Is Joe expected to take a specific occupation or change occupations to comply with his varna?
4. Is Joe expected to modify his lifestyle based on the determined varna?

 

[kaisersose]

Mleccha is not a varna. Mleccha means one who does not know sanskrit. By that I am a mleccha. I do not know about others.

Mlechcha has multiple meanings, but the underlying common factor is outsider/alien. Mlechchas were considered to be outside the Varnashrama Dharma.

 

[atanu]

Varna as found in the Gita and the Manu Smriti.

Again, I would like you to be specific about what the role of Varna in today's life is? Especially, the assumed kind where one's Varna is determined by factors other than birth.

That is OK. Gita is very clear about Karma Yoga. One can just follow that.

As an example, let us take the case of a devout Western Hindu - Joe.
0. Who (X) determines Joe's varna? What qualifies X to make these determinations?
1. What is the role of Varna in Joe's life?
2. What are the changes it brings about?
3. Is Joe expected to take a specific occupation or change occupations to comply with his varna?
4. Is Joe expected to modify his lifestyle based on the determined varna?

Why is it required? Why is it always required to find about others? One must know about oneself. If Joe is already a follower of Hinduism, his teacher will decide.

Why is it necessary to reject the spiritual concept of varna?

 

[Onkara]

Why is it required? Why is it always required to find about others? One must know about oneself. If Joe is already a follower of Hinduism, his teacher will decide.

Why is it necessary to reject the spiritual concept of varna?

The "issue" at hand, for me personally, is not the rejection (or acceptance) of varna or roles (hierarchy and privallage by birth exists in Europe too despite democracy or meritocracy).

The quote you provided from Brihadaraynaka U. 2.4.6 positions the highest truth and is itself Surti and beyond doubt.

However the issue is at the empirical level, the question becomes where does "my body-mind" fit into the Hindu religion? It is as materialistic as that because the topic is basically 'if Hinduism is a religion' and if so how does one fit in or follow that religion. What can "I" do or not do, how will "I" be treated by others, and so on.

Another angle to the question of varna (taking it as correct and accepted by all) is what does it imply for each person here? Or in this case of Hinduism as a religion, can one be denied the wisdom of the sutri, for example, because what is the point of following Hinduism if it is denied to you?

 

[atanu]

The "issue" at hand, for me personally, is not the rejection (or acceptance) of varna or roles (hierarchy and privallage by birth exists in Europe too despite democracy or meritocracy).

The quote you provided from Brihadaraynaka U. 2.4.6 positions the highest truth and is itself Surti and beyond doubt.

However the issue is at the empirical level, the question becomes where does "my body-mind" fit into the Hindu religion? It is as materialistic as that because the topic is basically 'if Hinduism is a religion' and if so how does one fit in or follow that religion. What can "I" do or not do, how will "I" be treated by others, and so on.

Another angle to the question of varna (taking it as correct and accepted by all) is what does it imply for each person here? Or in this case of Hinduism as a religion, can one be denied the wisdom of the sutri, for example, because what is the point of following Hinduism if it is denied to you?

How many are doing any Vedic rituals of their own? If I belong to any sampradaya (school), I may be doing some particular rituals, as per the practise of the particular school. Beyond that I have nothing to worry. If I have no school, the concept of varna, and its applicabilty towards work is,IMO, sufficiently taken care of in Gita.

Wisdom of sruti is not denied to anyone and from that POV no one is not Self. At the same time not everyone equally perceives the truth of any sruti and Self.

 

[Onkara]

How many are doing any Vedic rituals of their own? If I belong to any sampradaya (school), I may be doing some particular rituals, as per the practise of the particular school. Beyond that I have nothing to worry. If I have no school, the concept of varna, and its applicabilty towards work is,IMO, sufficiently taken care of in Gita.

Wisdom of sruti is not denied to anyone and from that POV no one is not Self. At the same time not everyone equally perceives the truth of any sruti and Self.

In which case (with respect ) why are we even discussing varna as if it matters? Does it matter to anyone in India, generally speaking?

My tone isn't sarcastic; I am trying to see how varna matters, as it seems it only matters to the sampradaya and not to devotees. In other words it is just like club membership but not being part of the club is still just as good and does matter today?

 

[atanu]

In which case (with respect ) why are we even discussing varna as if it matters? Does it matter to anyone in India, generally speaking?

My tone isn't sarcastic; I am trying to see how varna matters, as it seems it only matters to the sampradaya and not to devotees. In other words it is just like club membership but not being part of the club is still just as good and does matter today?

It does not matter a bit if one is following Gita, or the yama-niyama of yoga sutra, or one's teacher. A teacher might prescribe tasks for me as per my varna, according to scriptures. And, if I wished to abide by dharma shatsra myself, I would follow certain rules etc. Also, If I were to conduct a specific yajna or a puja, I would go to a qualified person. It also pays to understand varna, since proper understanding of it will inhibit the tendency to hold grudge against so-called others.

It pays to understand it in general, just as any correct knowledge is useful.

 

[Onkara]

Thanks Atanu.
I tend to feel that varna (and caste which more societal) works against people interested in Hinduism as it seems to imply inequality by birth, it tends to form a moral block and as you wisely say, understanding it removes that block.

 

[chinu]

Doesnt it include all religions? As it is said in the Vedas, "Truth is One, though the sages know it variously." Doesnt the very idea of Hinduism being a religion opposite to what a Hindu believes in?

Hindu is the other name of river-indus,
Hinduism simply means -- group of people who lives along this river.

Religion means Yog, or Re-union, and this is commen word for all.

_/\_
Chinu