Is Hinduism a religion

[atanu]

Thanks Atanu.
I tend to feel that varna (and caste which more societal) works against people interested in Hinduism as it seems to imply inequality by birth, it tends to form a moral block and as you wisely say, understanding it removes that block.

There is inequality in the world, whether we accept it or not. A table and chair do not have same functions. But my holding a grudge against Einstien for having got a better education (and thus being a Nobel winner) is similar to a table saying that it is being discriminated against and that all sweet ladies sit on the chair.

Universe is stratification. It is so evident. Without stratification, universe has no existence. In my view, what true understanding of varna does is just the opposite of what ego is impelling us to believe. The teaching that one's guna-karma decides one's varna is a positive concept and is not fatalism.

But, if it is not agreed that guna-karma-varna-kula is the basic cycle of birth and rebirth as taught in Hinduism, then what is the point of coming to Hinduism at all?

The alternative is to just follow Gita, or yama-niyama, or one's guru. In other words, just SURRENDER. On total surrender, all these questions will not arise. But if questions arise then the basic rule of the cycle of guna-karma-varna-kula holds valid.

We have the knowledge of breaking the cycle of birth -- continous abidance in the Self. But are we there? It is impractical to imagine that the cycle of birth is already broken.

 

[atanu]

Thanks Atanu.
I tend to feel that varna (and caste which more societal) works against people interested in Hinduism as it seems to imply inequality by birth, it tends to form a moral block and as you wisely say, understanding it removes that block.

Do we really want more people to come in and for that we will break the basic premises of dharma?

 

[atanu]

Considering that the universe is a stratification and that every one has a place and function here, is it not nice to learn that the place and function can be changed by one's own effort because varna is determined by guna-karma. Birth is just the result of previous effort but it does not necessarily hinder us in our present efforts, if we have right knowedge.

 

[Onkara]

There is inequality in the world, whether we accept it or not. A table and chair do not have same functions. But my holding a grudge against Einstien for having got a better education (and thus being a Nobel winner) is similar to a table saying that it is being discriminated against and that all sweet ladies sit on the chair.

Put it that way I hope my next life is a chair Seriously though, I agree, variation is the spice of creation.

Universe is stratification. It is so evident. Without stratification, universe has no existence. In my view, what true understanding of varna does is just the opposite of what ego is impelling us to believe. The teaching that one's guna-karma decides one's varna is a positive concept and is not fatalism.

But, if it is not agreed that guna-karma-varna-kula is the basic cycle of birth and rebirth as taught in Hinduism, then what is the point of coming to Hinduism at all?

True again.

The alternative is to just follow Gita, or yama-niyama, or one's guru. In other words, just SURRENDER. On total surrender, all these questions will not arise. But if questions arise then the basic rule of the cycle of guna-karma-varna-kula holds valid.

We have the knowledge of breaking the cycle of birth -- contuinous abidance in the Self. But are we there? It is impractical to imagine that the cycle of birth is already broken.

I agree.

Do we really want more people to come in and for that we will break the basic premises of dharma?

I don't think it is about head count and the number of people "converting" (or changing Dharma), it is about effectively answering the doubts that keep the mind active and concealing the summum bonum - the highest truth. As we know already, whilst we think we are a body and our body has a role (varna), then we risk missing It, in this life perhaps if we consider our self too lowly or incapable due to birth. Can this doubt be completely eliminated?

I would say yes, it is answered, based on your quote from the Upanishad above, which is sruti. The difficulty might be walking the 'Hindu way', on which we may have to confront ignorance, prejudice and birth based discrimination, but that was never said to be easy.

 

[atanu]

Put it that way I hope my next life is a chair Seriously though, I agree, variation is the spice of creation.

I knew. I knew. Imagine that you are a table and imagine how aggrieved you would be when a sweet lady by-passed you and sat on the chair -- time after time.

Ha ha.

 

[Onkara]

I knew. I knew. Imagine that you are a table and imagine how aggrieved you would be when a sweet lady by-passed you and sat on the chair -- time after time.

Ha ha.

Perhaps tables like other tables; such as slim tables with curvey legs?
Oh Onkara and his mind! :run:

 

[Jainarayan]

So what about people born without a clear varNa? E.g. people born in the USA or Europe.
Or Sikhs, a Singh or Kaur returning to Hinduism without knowing their varNa?
What about orphans e.g. a baby in India found abandoned in front of a mandir with no markings?

Maybe I'll pose the question "over there".

It was a very bad idea to ask the question "over there"...

Originally Posted by X
Please, for God's sake, don't rake up this issue again ! I am sick of it. Why aren't you happy with just being a Hindu ? Varna is decided by your guna and karma ... please refer to BG, Chapter-18. Jaati cannot be changed in Indian society ... it is by birth. Each Jaati used to be engaged in some specific task in the society .... but this is not true in today's Indian Hindu society. You can find a Brahmin by caste working as a sweeper & a Charmkaar (shoemaker) holding an administrative post in the Govt or a private firm or even the head of the army.

My advice is, "Stay away from this topic and engage in spiritually lifting tasks" ... this topic has been always found to be too hot to handle peacefully on this forum. You should be interested in the taste of a mango and not in the tree from which it has come !

 

[Onkara]

Oh well Not to worry.

I suppose until mind is happy (stilled) there will be no peace.

I will remember Atanu ji's advice and surrender this monkey-mind to the Lords Lotus feet - Divine Consciousness

 

[atanu]

Oh well Not to worry.

I suppose until mind is happy (stilled) there will be no peace.

I will remember Atanu ji's advice and surrender this monkey-mind to the Lords Lotus feet - Divine Consciousness

Hey bandhu

Hey, it is not atanu's advice. I've merely reminded of a part of Gita.

 

[Onkara]

Hey bandhu

Hey, it is not atanu's advice. I've merely reminded of a part of Gita.

Point taken
But where does the Gita end and Atanu begin? All this is verily Brahman

 

[atanu]

Point taken
But where does the Gita end and Atanu begin? All this is verily Brahman

I am very much bothered by mosquito bite on this body (atanu's body) but not of mosquito bite on that body (Onkara's body). How can then all this verily be Brahman?

 

[Onkara]

I am very much bothered by mosquito bite on this body (atanu's body) but not of mosquito bite on that body (Onkara's body). How can then all this verily be Brahman?

These parts, which you and I call Atanu and Onkara, reside in the sum (Brahman/Krishna/Shiva/Durga). The division of parts - Atanu and Onkara's bodies are always a part in that sum. Bound by time and place.

The 5 elements that make the bodies are the same, having their source (Brahma), support (Vishnu) and dissolution (Rudra) in that very same Brahman.

The formation of these elements (bodies) is different due to time, space and genetics. Like seeds thrown into the wind; some seeds sprouted at the start others later as their offspring, some here, some there, some strong others weak. The nerves sensing the mosquito's bite are limited to the body and the body to time, space and elements.

Variation and change is synonymous to life, each individual accounts for his or her microcosm (jIva) in the macrocosm (Brahman). The dissipation and variation began when Brahman willed to be many. Not for one moment has anything left Brahman's all knowing gaze (omniscience):

Mundhkya Upanishad - Part of the Atharva Veda:
"Holy sir, what is that by which all else is known?"

4. "Those who know Brahman," replied Angiras, "say that there are two kinds of knowledge, the higher and the lower.

5. The lower is knowledge of the Vedhas (the Rk, the Sâma, the Yajur, and the Atharva), and also of phonetics, ceremonials, grammar, etymology, metre, and astronomy. The higher is knowledge of that by which one knows the changeless reality.

6. By this (the higher knowledge) is fully revealed to the wise that which transcends the senses, which is uncaused, which is indefinable, which has neither eyes nor ears, neither hands nor feet, which is all-pervading, subtler than the subtlest -- the everlasting, the source of all.

7. As the web comes out of the spider and is withdrawn, as plants grow from the soil and hair from the body of man, so springs the universe from the eternal Brahman.

8. Brahman willed that it should be so, and brought forth out of himself the material cause of the universe; from this came the primal energy, and from the primal energy mind, from mind the subtle elements, from the subtle elements the many worlds, and from the acts performed by beings in the many worlds the chain of cause and effect -- the reward and punishment of works.

9. Brahman sees all, knows all; he is knowledge itself. Of him are born cosmic intelligence, name, form, and the material cause of all created beings and things.

 

[atanu]

These parts, which you and I call Atanu and Onkara, reside in the sum (Brahman/Krishna/Shiva/Durga). The division of parts - Atanu and Onkara's bodies are always a part in that sum. Bound by time and place.

The 5 elements that make the bodies are the same, having their source (Brahma), support (Vishnu) and dissolution (Rudra) in that very same Brahman.

The formation of these elements (bodies) is different due to time, space and genetics. Like seeds thrown into the wind; some seeds sprouted at the start others later as their offspring, some here, some there, some strong others weak. The nerves sensing the mosquito's bite are limited to the body and the body to time, space and elements.

Variation and change is synonymous to life, each individual accounts for his or her microcosm (jIva) in the macrocosm (Brahman). The dissipation and variation began when Brahman willed to be many. Not for one moment has anything left Brahman's all knowing gaze (omniscience):

Mundhkya Upanishad - Part of the Atharva Veda:
"Holy sir, what is that by which all else is known?"

4. "Those who know Brahman," replied Angiras, "say that there are two kinds of knowledge, the higher and the lower.

5. The lower is knowledge of the Vedhas (the Rk, the Sâma, the Yajur, and the Atharva), and also of phonetics, ceremonials, grammar, etymology, metre, and astronomy. The higher is knowledge of that by which one knows the changeless reality.

6. By this (the higher knowledge) is fully revealed to the wise that which transcends the senses, which is uncaused, which is indefinable, which has neither eyes nor ears, neither hands nor feet, which is all-pervading, subtler than the subtlest -- the everlasting, the source of all.

7. As the web comes out of the spider and is withdrawn, as plants grow from the soil and hair from the body of man, so springs the universe from the eternal Brahman.

8. Brahman willed that it should be so, and brought forth out of himself the material cause of the universe; from this came the primal energy, and from the primal energy mind, from mind the subtle elements, from the subtle elements the many worlds, and from the acts performed by beings in the many worlds the chain of cause and effect -- the reward and punishment of works.

9. Brahman sees all, knows all; he is knowledge itself. Of him are born cosmic intelligence, name, form, and the material cause of all created beings and things.

Wow. Frubals.

But then we perhaps are not Brahman?

 

[Onkara]

Wow. Frubals.

But then we perhaps are not Brahman?

frubals are my friends

But are frubals real?

They are, but only whilst they matter. Likewise the more the material world of Atanu and Onkara matters the greater the doubt in Brahman. To arrive at Brahman we can use the method to negate all that the sages have told us that It is not (this is one method of many). Once Brahman is known, beyond doubt, then All is known as Brahman. The material world and all the beautiful changing transient life about us can still be enjoyed, praised and known as Brahman (including frubals no doubt)

 

[atanu]

frubals are my friends

But are frubals real?

They are, but only whilst they matter. Likewise the more the material world of Atanu and Onkara matters the greater the doubt in Brahman. To arrive at Brahman we can use the method to negate all that the sages have told us that It is not (this is one method of many). Once Brahman is known, beyond doubt, then All is known as Brahman. The material world and all the beautiful changing transient life about us can still be enjoyed, praised and known as Brahman (including frubals no doubt)

I cannot give you any more frubals right now. But that may as well be for good of you, as a friend correctly defined Frubals:

frubals: figment of the imagination, unit of approval, or indigestible variety of pastry?

You will not wish to get indigestion, surely?

 

[Onkara]

I cannot give you any more frubals right now. But that may as well be for good of you, as a friend correctly defined Frubals:

frubals: figment of the imagination, unit of approval, or indigestible variety of pastry?

You will not wish to get indigestion, surely?

A wise friend is a friend who knows his frubals from his pastry. Even wiser is a man who knows his Brahman from his salmon!
(OK, I will improve my poetry in my next life but ya get da gist)

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
No idea what is been discussed as Onkara or Atanu, personally find its parts of the whole in different forms so in between the beginning and the end things appear different is the mind seeing things differently which is temporary truth and so accept them likewise!
Love & rgds

 

[atanu]

Friends,
No idea what is been discussed as Onkara or Atanu, personally find its parts of the whole in different forms so in between the beginning and the end things appear different is the mind seeing things differently which is temporary truth and so accept them likewise!
Love & rgds

See, without being generous with giving away frubals, comprehension eludes. Hmmmmm.

 

[atanu]

Doesnt it include all religions? As it is said in the Vedas, "Truth is One, though the sages know it variously." Doesnt the very idea of Hinduism being a religion opposite to what a Hindu believes in?

I will say that the concept of samanya (general) and vishesha (particular) would apply here also. In terms of its particulars, it indeed can be called a unique religion. Ceratin particular teachings are specific just as certain specifics will identify the Islam as unique. But at the most general level, which is never not true, sanatana dharma will be true for all at all times.

 

[Akhilesh]

Hinduism is a way of life as well as religion it is the most ancient and organised religion of the world.