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Is Homeopathy Effective?

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Nothing in homeopathy works beyond the placebo effect. The basis of its theory for treatment "like cures like" is completely false. Water memory is another one treating water to make drinkable would be impossible, neither would any form of desalination technique either). Only a buffoon who believes in fairy tales or some poor sob who has been conned by a charismatic quack would believe that homeopathy is capable of anything behind a placebo. It still has a use as such in medicine though. Sometime, a placebo is all that is needed.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Does it really?
From my reading of research, placebo efficacy depends upon
stronger influences than merely buying a product in a store.
When dispensed by a doctor, this environment offers measurable
value, ie, above placebos lacking this sense of official ritual.
Ref...
A Dramatic Cure
The power of the placebo effect - Harvard Health
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa013259

Even when the patient is aware of placebo treatment,
the effect can still be real.
Placebos without Deception: A Randomized Controlled Trial in Irritable Bowel Syndrome

FYI...
I say homeopathy is bunk.
From what @Trailblazer has posted some homeopaths do a harder sale than prescribed medications. In other words they really really try to cure you with their placebo, it is custom to you! It is no wonder that it can work better than other placebos when one does that.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
From what @Trailblazer has posted some homeopaths do a harder sale than prescribed medications. In other words they really really try to cure you with their placebo, it is custom to you! It is no wonder that it can work better than other placebos when one does that.
It doesn't appear that the "sale" is what makes the placebo
effect work. It's the medical ritual that's linked with efficacy.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No argument from me but the theory of the treatment that interests me. I doubt very much if it works but I'd still like to hear from people who have tried it.
What is more convincing are proper medical trials that are double blind. When neither the person taking the drug knows what they are homeopathy is no different than placebo.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Not pro-homeopathy, per se, but I do think it has its place. I say that knowing full well there's no mechanism or proof for it being effective.

People swear by it, and whether it's a placebo effect, wishful thinking, or just the therapeutic impact of just doing something, I think it serves the purpose of helping with minor, everyday things like headaches, muscle aches, etc., if it means avoiding things like acetaminophen or ibuprofen that can have negative effects on the body; a kind of positive side effect of not having anything in it to actually impact the body. ;)

An example would be my wife who had liver issues and couldn't use acetaminophen and who NSAIDs tend to make her sick. She would use arnica gel to help with minor aches. Do we know there's no actual mechanism beyond applying a gel that has alcohol and aloe in it? Sure. But ya gotta do something, eh?
Do you have to do something?

The placebo effect gets over-represented:

The various factors that contribute to a measured or perceived placebo effect vary depending upon the situation – what symptoms or outcomes are being observed. Subjective outcomes like pain, fatigue, and an overall sense of wellbeing, are subject to a host of psychological factors. For example, subjects in clinical studies want to get better, they want to believe they are on the active experimental treatment and that it works, they want to feel that the time and effort they have invested is worthwhile, and they want to make the researchers happy. In turn, the researchers want their treatment to work and want to see their patients get better. So there is often a large reporting bias. In other words, subjects are likely to convince themselves they feel better, and to report that they feel better, even if they don’t. Also, those conducting a trial will tend to make biased observations in favor of a positive effect.

It has also been clearly demonstrated that subjects who are being studied in a clinical trial objectively do better. This is because they are in a clinical trial – they are paying closer attention to their overall health, they are likely taking better care of themselves due to the constant reminder of their health and habits provided by the study visits and attention they are getting, they are being examined on a regular basis by a physician, and their overall compliance with treatment is likely to be higher. So basically, subjects in a trial take better care of themselves and get more medical attention than people not in trials. If for those not in a clinical trial, if they decide to do something about their health by starting a new treatment, they are likely to engage in more healthful behavior in other ways.
The Placebo Effect

Later in the article, the author says that it would be more accurate to call the "placebo effect" the "clinical trial effect," and I tend to agree.

If you and your partner find it subjectively helpful, that's fine. Personally, if I'm going to buy a product with no active ingredients, I'm not going to buy it from a con artist. There are any number of companies who sell aloe gel or whatnot without pretending it's a cure-all.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Not pro-homeopathy, per se, but I do think it has its place. I say that knowing full well there's no mechanism or proof for it being effective.

People swear by it, and whether it's a placebo effect, wishful thinking, or just the therapeutic impact of just doing something, I think it serves the purpose of helping with minor, everyday things like headaches, muscle aches, etc., if it means avoiding things like acetaminophen or ibuprofen that can have negative effects on the body; a kind of positive side effect of not having anything in it to actually impact the body. ;)

An example would be my wife who had liver issues and couldn't use acetaminophen and who NSAIDs tend to make her sick. She would use arnica gel to help with minor aches. Do we know there's no actual mechanism beyond applying a gel that has alcohol and aloe in it? Sure. But ya gotta do something, eh?
Well arnica contains a real, biologically active substance, helenalin: Helenalin - Wikipedia which has shown some anti-inflammatory properties in the lab, though not clinically. So if she uses a gel on her skin with this in it, it may do something. (N.B. It is also poisonous if ingested.) But as I understand it, arnica gel is not a homeopathic preparation: it actually has arnica in it.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
From a discussion in another thread where @Trailblazer mentioned that she takes the position that homeopathic medicines have been tested and have a place in medical treatments. I disagree, and hold that there has never been any scientific test that shows that homeopathic methods have created any effective medicines.

I'd be interested in hearing from any pro-homeopathy people here. Do you have any evidence that homeopathic remedies have any effectiveness for any medical condition? If so, could you present it?
Due to the placebo effect, If the patient believes the treatment will be effective, they will be effective if the illness was created by the mind's expectations. This statement applies as well to otherwise useless standard medical treatments.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Due to the placebo effect, If the patient believes the treatment will be effective, they will be effective if the illness was created by the mind's expectations.
That claim conflicts with the research I cited earlier.
The problems needn't be created by the mind, but the
mind's response can result in both physical improvement
& pain perception, eg, the IBS placebo experiment.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
That claim conflicts with the research I cited earlier.
The problems needn't be created by the mind, but the
mind's response can result in both physical improvement
& pain perception, eg, the IBS placebo experiment.
Interesting but one study (replicated?) doesn't close the issue.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
From a discussion in another thread where @Trailblazer mentioned that she takes the position that homeopathic medicines have been tested and have a place in medical treatments. I disagree, and hold that there has never been any scientific test that shows that homeopathic methods have created any effective medicines.

I'd be interested in hearing from any pro-homeopathy people here. Do you have any evidence that homeopathic remedies have any effectiveness for any medical condition? If so, could you present it?
If homeopathy works is not because the water remembers to have been in contact with atoms of the pathogen, but because it remembers to have been in contact with the bladder's output of Father Pio and Mother Teresa as well. And since pathogens usually kills, while Father Pio, and Mother Teresa, are enabled to miraculously cure people, that is a much better scientific explanation of why homeopathy is so effective.

That is a very well kept secret, and big Pharma does not want you to know anything about it.

Ciao

- viole
 
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Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Do you have to do something?

Technically no, but makes it easier to get through the day when you can manage pain.


If you and your partner find it subjectively helpful, that's fine. Personally, if I'm going to buy a product with no active ingredients, I'm not going to buy it from a con artist. There are any number of companies who sell aloe gel or whatnot without pretending it's a cure-all.

That makes total sense and would be a great personal experiment! I may try it myself. I tend to use other methods of pain management like heat/cold or pain relievers (my liver works pretty well!), and I usually attribute the arnica gel with helping via the cooling effect of the alcohol. (Though exchemist's information about arnica might have me look into my wife's product, whether it's the usual homeopathic stuff with 0% arnica or not.)
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Well arnica contains a real, biologically active substance, helenalin: Helenalin - Wikipedia which has shown some anti-inflammatory properties in the lab, though not clinically. So if she uses a gel on her skin with this in it, it may do something. (N.B. It is also poisonous if ingested.) But as I understand it, arnica gel is not a homeopathic preparation: it actually has arnica in it.

Hm...interesting! I will have to check out the gel my wife uses to see if it actually contains arnica.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have a DHom degree from a school of homeopathy which I attended for four years so I know more about how homeopathy works than you and your sidekicks.

I'm curious about what you were taught. I have an MD degree from a major American university medical school that followed four years of undergraduate studies, as well as Board Certification in internal medicine after three years of internship and residency. Internal medicine is the science of medical diagnosis and therapeutics in adults. We're the people other doctors refer their adult patients with problems needing to be identified. If you have a bone coming through your arm or pus in your ear canal, a specialist in diagnosis is not needed. But when you are dealing with fatigue or shortness of breath, or unexplained weight loss or ankle swelling, for example, and you don't know why, you consult the internist to make the diagnosis. When you have abnormal lab tests that you aren't trained to interpret, you ask the internist to solve it. Why are the electrolytes abnormal? Why is the hematocrit depressed?

To do that requires a comprehensive understanding of man in health and disease down to the cellular and biochemical level. And you need a comprehensive knowledge of medical microbiology and pharmacology (we called them bugs and drugs in school). If your remedies are capable of changing physiology for the better, they are capable of doing damage, and you need to know for whom the therapy is contraindicated, and how to monitor for toxicity. Do you know how the liver metabolizes the substances you provide, or how the kidney excretes it? Do you have any training in clinics or hospitals?

What I have described is scientific medicine, based in the study of how the body works, it's therapies grounded in controlled studies. No therapy makes it into the medical armamentarium until it is shown to be more efficacious than placebo by a statistically significant amount.

Of course, if all you are administering is placebo, none of that knowledge is necessary, but you also aren't going to get any results. That's because homeopathy is not scientific. It is based on a principle believed by faith, not empiricism. The idea that vanishing small concentrations of substances can mitigate or cure illness is as ungrounded in empiricism as the chiropractic principle that all disease originates from misalignment of the spinal cord or the prescientific medical belief that bleeding evil humors is how illness is purged. None of those ideas bears fruit. Yes, the chiropractors can have success with physical therapy for musculoskeletal problems, but that's just medicine.

I liken homeopathists to shamans, except shamans use substances that can modify physiology and biochemistry, generally gentle herbals. That is also medicine.

Which brings me to this: There is only medicine, placebo, and toxin, not homeopathic or allopathic or naturopathic or herbal or ayurvedic medicine. If it can improve symptoms and/or function, or enhance longevity, it's medicine. If it does the opposite, it's a toxin, and if it does neither, it's a placebo. Scientific medicine has accepted therapies that come from outside of its own investigations such as acupuncture and gingko biloba, but only after controlled clinical trials showed them to be efficacious. These two passed, and are now considered medicine, not alternative medicine. There is no value in making that distinction.

No homeopathic treatments have passed that test. None are included in the medical armamentarium for reasons already given.

They say antidepressant drugs are not addictive but every time I tried to wean myself off of them I was suicidal

I don't think you know what addiction is, but I don't suppose you have a problem with it in homeopathy if you're basically prescribing water.

Addiction is self-destructive behavior that an individual has difficulty resisting. Seeking drugs is one such behavior, as is the unhealthy pursuit of sex, shopping, or gambling.

This needs to be distinguished from tolerance, which is the change in a body's physiology over time due to the chronic use of a drug, resulting in unwanted symptoms when the drug is withdrawn too quickly. A person doesn't even need to be conscious to suffer withdrawal. If a person in a coma develops tolerance to say, a steroid (one is not likely to be receiving narcotics if comatose), the body will demonstrate objective signs of distress if the drug isn't tapered slowly - perhaps increased heart rate or a fall in blood pressure. But this person is not addicted, because there is no self-destructive behavior involved, and if the patient recovers and awakens, no expectation of drug seeking behavior.

If you relapsed off your antidepressant, it just means that it was helping you until you stopped it, not that you were either addicted to it (a psychological condition), nor dependent on it (tolerant of it, a physical condition).

I found a homeopathic doctor who was a licensed medical doctor registered with the AMA. Within a month of being on a homeopathic remedy I was able to get off the drugs and I was never depressed again.

That's surprising. You are in Washington state, correct? In both California and Missouri, I could have been disciplined for that. The medical profession has standards of care, and physicians who violate them knowingly are rogue, and those violating them unknowingly are incompetent. I was also a hospice medical director, and would visit the terminally ill at their homes. Often, I would see a bag of marijuana on a nightstand beside the patient, which is a sensible addition to palliative care, since it treats anxiety, insomnia, pain, and poor appetite without harmful side effects, but I was prevented from endorsing the treatment by medical oversight at both the state level and federal (Drug Enforcement Agency), and so gave the family a wink and a nod, and asked them to have it put away whenever any member of the hospice team was visiting.

I'm pretty sure that prescribing homeopathic remedies would result in my license being disciplined by the state medical board if it were reported by a concerned family member. We're simply not permitted to go off the reservation like that.

Clinical trials that compared the effects of homeopathic remedies to the antidepressant drug Prozac for treatment of depression only comparedthe results of the first homeopathic remedy that was given with the results of Prozac. This is not a fair comparison because Prozac works differently than homeopathic remedies. Any homeopath knows that the first remedy given is often just a best guess and that more remedies are usually required until the correct remedy is found.

And this shows a misunderstanding of the science. A therapy must be compared to placebo to determine its efficacy. Prozac has such studies, and one can find out how well it works by reviewing those. I doubt any homeopathic remedies have such data available showing efficacy with statistical significance, but if if there were such data available, one only need compare the two studies to compare them.

Furthermore, the mechanism of action isn't relevant to the comparison, just the efficacy and toxicity of the two.

Also, modifying the regimen to optimize effect is done done in medicine as well. Did you want to compare the results of that to the efficacy of Prozac alone?

Incidentally, mixing antidepressants rationally requires an understanding of the neurochemistry of depression, and which antidepressants modify which neurotransmitter levels. Prozac is an SSRI - a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor - meaning it causes an increase in the concentration of synaptic serotonin. This is one of three major neurotransmitters relevant to depression, and SSRI's modify the brain by causing released serotonin to remain in the synapse longer as the body tries to remove it through reabsorption. Paxil or Zoloft and Celexa are also SSRIs. If Prozac gives a partial response at the highest safe dose, and one wants to enhance it safely, adding another SSRI is a mistake. You can read about serotonin syndrome here, if that wasn't already covered in your medical studies.

No, a scientific choice would be to add a norepinephrine or dopamine modifying antidepressant like Wellbutrin to an SSRI. I don't imagine you have to consider such things in homeopathy, especially if all treatments are just placebo.

Incidentally, your personal anecdote does not convince me that homeopathic remedies cured depression in you. The condition often remits spontaneously: "The results revealed that 23% of adults will experience remission of depression without treatment in three months, 32% in six months and 53% in a year." Did they teach you that in your homeopathic studies?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Due to the placebo effect, If the patient believes the treatment will be effective, they will be effective if the illness was created by the mind's expectations. This statement applies as well to otherwise useless standard medical treatments.
No, that's not generally what the placebo effect is about.

It's effects like:

- people naturally try to encourage others, so subjects in clinical trials will tend to report results that they think the researchers want to hear.

- when someone is participating in a clinical trial, they tend to think more about their health, which can inspire them to take other measures to improve their healththat aren't related to the clinical trial.

There's a slight improvement in terms of subjective reports of pain (though keep in mind point #1 above), but the effect is nowhere near as much as the sham treatment industry makes it out to be. There's generally no empirically measurable effect at all.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
No, that's not generally what the placebo effect is about.

It's effects like:

- people naturally try to encourage others, so subjects in clinical trials will tend to report results that they think the researchers want to hear.

- when someone is participating in a clinical trial, they tend to think more about their health, which can inspire them to take other measures to improve their healththat aren't related to the clinical trial.

There's a slight improvement in terms of subjective reports of pain (though keep in mind point #1 above), but the effect is nowhere near as much as the sham treatment industry makes it out to be. There's generally no empirically measurable effect at all.
It sounds like you underestimate the effect.

I've been reading about the placebo effect for many years. One such experiment I read about, maybe 30 years ago, involved a Haitian man, a believer, who was cursed by a Voodoo priest who told him that a growth would appear in his throat. The growth appeared and grew to the size of a baseball. Then, men in white lab coats, convinced the man that they were medical doctors with the power to cure him. He was given sugar pills, placebos, and the growth disappeared. The article I read provided photos of the growth in its various stages and the "doctors" who cured it..

Another experiment I read about showed that the placebo had the same chemical effect in the brain as the drug it replaced.

Still another, a Harvard study, showed that the placebo effect worked even when subjects were told they were taking a placebo.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It sounds like you underestimate the effect.

I've been reading about the placebo effect for many years. One such experiment I read about, maybe 30 years ago, involved a Haitian man, a believer, who was cursed by a Voodoo priest who told him that a growth would appear in his throat. The growth appeared and grew to the size of a baseball. Then, men in white lab coats, convinced the man that they were medical doctors with the power to cure him. He was given sugar pills, placebos, and the growth disappeared. The article I read provided photos of the growth in its various stages and the "doctors" who cured it..

Another experiment I read about showed that the placebo had the same chemical effect in the brain as the drug it replaced.

Still another, a Harvard study, showed that the placebo effect worked even when subjects were told they were taking a placebo.
By "experiment," do you mean "untested anecdote"?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
FYI, I am not debating homeopathy on this thread, not because I cannot defend it, but because I do not like debating and I do not have time to answer posts here and on the other threads I have posts on. I am not a medical doctor so I cannot address physical diseases that homeopaths treat. I only used homeopathy for psychological problems.

I am also not going to debate homeopathy because I am tired of listening to biased people who have no idea what they are talking about and have already decided that homeopathy is bunk. NOTHING could be further from the truth. Homeopathy has treated many diseases successfully when conventional medicine failed. Moreover, the diseases were cured, not just palliated. The goal of homeopathy is to treat the cause of the disease, not just the symptoms.

We are not talking about God or religion that can never be proven. We are talking about science, but I can no more convince biased people that homeopathy works than I can convince atheists that God exists or that my religion is true. The studies are available on the internet. If people care about their health they would want to know the truth rather than making assumptions that are not based upon any scientific facts.

Both my homeopathic doctors that treated me were medical doctors, licensed with the AMA. That had been practicing conventional medicine for 20 years before they started to practice homeopathy exclusively. Both recommended drugs for any conditions they were unable to treat with remedies and they also prescribed drugs. There is no contest between homeopathy and conventional medicine. No reputable homeopath would claim that homeopathy can treat conditions that only conventional medicine can treat. Only biased ignorant people make it into a contest between the two kinds of medicine and call homeopathy bunk. They have nothing to back up their claims except their prejudiced mind and they won't bother to look at the evidence because they are afraid it might prove they are wrong. Ego reigns supreme.
 
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