Is Homeopathy Effective?

[Trailblazer]

And no, I want to be right.

You need to be right about me being wrong. Your behavior here constantly displays that.
If you did not need to be right about me being wrong you would not KEEP telling me I am wrong.

Your behavior here constantly displays that you are looking for excuses to believe.

I need no excuses to believe because I have evidence.

We are not talking about "personal opinion" here. Personal opinion is what you appear to run on and you seem to think that is all that others have too. This is not the case.

What do you have aside from a personal opinion? If you have something else please post it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You need to be right about me being wrong. Your behavior here constantly displays that.
If you did not need to be right about me being wrong you would not KEEP telling me I am wrong.

I need no excuses to believe because I have evidence.

What do you have aside from a personal opinion? If you have something else please post it.

That is incorrect. There is no "need" about it. You keep making errors and keep refusing to correct them. Well, you did at least sometimes start to state when you were giving a belief.

But I have no "need" to be right when I am demonstrably right. Take homeopathy for example. You do not even appear to understand what it is and you do not want to learn. If you did you would most likely realize that it is bunk too.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is incorrect. There is no "need" about it. You keep making errors and keep refusing to correct them. Well, you did at least sometimes start to state when you were giving a belief.

If there is no need "need" about it why do you keep telling me I am making errors? Even if I am making errors why does it matter to you if I refuse to correct them? Why do you continually point out my errors? Why not look at your own errors, or don't you make any?

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

But I have no "need" to be right when I am demonstrably right. Take homeopathy for example. You do not even appear to understand what it is and you do not want to learn. If you did you would most likely realize that it is bunk too.

I studied homeopathy for 4 years so I know what it is. How much have you studied it?
If you were demonstrably right you would be able to demonstrate that you are right, but you can't, because all you have is a personal opinion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If there is no need "need" about it why do you keep telling me I am making errors? Even if I am making errors, whcih I am not admitting to, why does it matter to you if I refuse to correct them?

I studied homeopathy for 4 years so I know what it is. How much have you studied it?
If you were demonstrably right you would be able to demonstrate that you are right, but you can't, because all you have is a personal opinion.

I have but I have my doubts about your claim.

Tell us how a "medicine" is prepared. Just give the general steps please.

And yes, I can have demonstrated that I am correct. many times. There is such a thing as denial. It is quite strong in some.

 

[Tiberius]

Due to the placebo effect, If the patient believes the treatment will be effective, they will be effective if the illness was created by the mind's expectations. This statement applies as well to otherwise useless standard medical treatments.

By using double blind methods, the placebo effect can be controlled and accounted for.

 

[Tiberius]

Then look for them yourself, don't expect other people to do your research for you.

The burden of proof is squarely on your shoulders. Do not ask me to take it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have but I have my doubts about your claim.

Tell us how a "medicine" is prepared. Just give the general steps please.

And yes, I can have demonstrated that I am correct. many times. There is such a thing as denial. It is quite strong in some.

I make no claims about homeopathy.

Homeopathic medicines are obtained from a precise and controlled process of successive homeopathic dilutions. They are commonly made by crushing a plant, animal, or mineral substance then putting it into a solvent such as grain alcohol. The extract is then further diluted in a mixture of alcohol and water.

Homeopathic Dilution | Nelsons.net
And yes, there is such a thing as denial. It is quite strong in some.

 

[Trailblazer]

The burden of proof is squarely on your shoulders. Do not ask me to take it.

I have no burden because I made no claims.

Happy trails.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I make no claims about homeopathy.

Homeopathic medicines are obtained from a precise and controlled process of successive homeopathic dilutions. They are commonly made by crushing a plant, animal, or mineral substance then putting it into a solvent such as grain alcohol. The extract is then further diluted in a mixture of alcohol and water.

Homeopathic Dilution | Nelsons.net
And yes, there is such a thing as denial. It is quite strong in some.

Why do you do this? Your post is still up there on this very same page:

" I studied homeopathy for 4 years so I know what it is."

You made claims. That one cannot be saved by an "I believe". But I see that you at least quoted a source.


Do you have any idea how much that is diluted? How much of the original is in the final product?

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you have any idea how much that is diluted? How much of the original is in the final product?

There are different dilutions/potencies. How much a substance is diluted depends upon the desired potency. The higher the potency, the less of the original substance remains. Very high potency remedies are highly diluted. The higher the potency the more deeper-acting the remedy is.

Potency scales

Three main logarithmic dilution scales are in regular use in homeopathy. Hahnemann created the "centesimal" or "C scale", diluting a substance by a factor of 100 at each stage. There is also a decimal dilution scale (notated as "X" or "D") in which the preparation is diluted by a factor of 10 at each stage.[8] The centesimal scale was favoured by Hahnemann for most of his life, although in his last ten years Hahnemann developed a quintamillesimal (Q) scale which diluted the drug 1 part in 50,000[9] The greatest dilution reasonably likely to contain at least one molecule of the original substance is around 12C.[10]

A 2C dilution requires a substance to be diluted to one part in one hundred, and then some of that diluted solution diluted by a further factor of one hundred. This works out to one part of the original substance in 10,000 parts of the solution.[11] A 6C dilution repeats this process six times, ending up with the original material diluted by a factor of 100−6=10−12. Higher dilutions follow the same pattern. In homeopathy, a solution that is more dilute is described as having a higher potency, and more dilute substances are considered by homeopaths to be stronger and deeper-acting.[12] The end product is often so diluted that it is indistinguishable from the dilutant (typically ethanol or pure water for liquids, milk sugar for insoluble solids).[13][14][15]

Hahnemann advocated 30C dilutions for most purposes (that is, dilution by a factor of 1060).[16] Hahnemann regularly used dilutions up to 300C but opined that "there must be a limit to the matter".[17]: 322  A solution that is more dilute is described as having a higher "potency", and more dilute substances are considered by homeopaths to be stronger and deeper-acting.[18] In Hahnemann's time it was reasonable to assume that preparations could be diluted indefinitely, as the concept of the atom or molecule as the smallest possible unit of a chemical substance was just beginning to be recognized. We now know that the greatest dilution that is reasonably likely to contain one molecule of the original substance is 12C, if starting from 1 mole of original substance (see Avogadro constant for justification).

Homeopathic dilutions - Wikipedia

 

[Subduction Zone]

There are different dilutions/potencies. How much a substance is diluted depends upon the desired potency. The higher the potency, the less of the original substance remains. Very high potency remedies are highly diluted. The higher the potency the more deeper-acting the remedy is.

Potency scales

Three main logarithmic dilution scales are in regular use in homeopathy. Hahnemann created the "centesimal" or "C scale", diluting a substance by a factor of 100 at each stage. There is also a decimal dilution scale (notated as "X" or "D") in which the preparation is diluted by a factor of 10 at each stage.[8] The centesimal scale was favoured by Hahnemann for most of his life, although in his last ten years Hahnemann developed a quintamillesimal (Q) scale which diluted the drug 1 part in 50,000[9] The greatest dilution reasonably likely to contain at least one molecule of the original substance is around 12C.[10]

A 2C dilution requires a substance to be diluted to one part in one hundred, and then some of that diluted solution diluted by a further factor of one hundred. This works out to one part of the original substance in 10,000 parts of the solution.[11] A 6C dilution repeats this process six times, ending up with the original material diluted by a factor of 100−6=10−12. Higher dilutions follow the same pattern. In homeopathy, a solution that is more dilute is described as having a higher potency, and more dilute substances are considered by homeopaths to be stronger and deeper-acting.[12] The end product is often so diluted that it is indistinguishable from the dilutant (typically ethanol or pure water for liquids, milk sugar for insoluble solids).[13][14][15]

Hahnemann advocated 30C dilutions for most purposes (that is, dilution by a factor of 1060).[16] Hahnemann regularly used dilutions up to 300C but opined that "there must be a limit to the matter".[17]: 322  A solution that is more dilute is described as having a higher "potency", and more dilute substances are considered by homeopaths to be stronger and deeper-acting.[18] In Hahnemann's time it was reasonable to assume that preparations could be diluted indefinitely, as the concept of the atom or molecule as the smallest possible unit of a chemical substance was just beginning to be recognized. We now know that the greatest dilution that is reasonably likely to contain one molecule of the original substance is 12C, if starting from 1 mole of original substance (see Avogadro constant for justification).

Homeopathic dilutions - Wikipedia

You copied and pasted a fairly good source. But I doubt if you understand what it means. Your failure to answer my question indicates that.

So let's go with the recommended the 30C dilutions. How much of the original medicine is left in a dose? Let's say that you start with a fairly good sized dose of 1 gram. Most pills that you take weigh less than 1 gram and will have doses measured in milligrams.

 

[Trailblazer]

You copied and pasted a fairly good source. But I doubt if you understand what it means. Your failure to answer my question indicates that.

No, I do not understand all that was in the wiki site since I did not learn how to prepare remedies in school, I only learned the principles of homeopathy and how to prescribe the correct remedies to match the patient's symptoms.

My failure to answer your questions means 2 things:

1. I do not have time
2. I choose not to answer

So let's go with the recommended the 30C dilutions. How much of the original medicine is left in a dose? Let's say that you start with a fairly good sized dose of 1 gram. Most pills that you take weigh less than 1 gram and will have doses measured in milligrams.

You can look up any of that on the internet.

It does not matter how much of the original substance is left because it is NOT that substance that is curative. As I said before, the less of the original substance is left, the more potent the remedy is, which is the reverse of conventional medicine. However, high potency remedies if not matched perfectly to the patient's symptoms will do nothing. That is why some homeopaths use lower potencies and administer them more frequently.

 

[Truthseeker]

There are different dilutions/potencies. How much a substance is diluted depends upon the desired potency. The higher the potency, the less of the original substance remains. Very high potency remedies are highly diluted. The higher the potency the more deeper-acting the remedy is.

Potency scales

Three main logarithmic dilution scales are in regular use in homeopathy. Hahnemann created the "centesimal" or "C scale", diluting a substance by a factor of 100 at each stage. There is also a decimal dilution scale (notated as "X" or "D") in which the preparation is diluted by a factor of 10 at each stage.[8] The centesimal scale was favoured by Hahnemann for most of his life, although in his last ten years Hahnemann developed a quintamillesimal (Q) scale which diluted the drug 1 part in 50,000[9] The greatest dilution reasonably likely to contain at least one molecule of the original substance is around 12C.[10]

A 2C dilution requires a substance to be diluted to one part in one hundred, and then some of that diluted solution diluted by a further factor of one hundred. This works out to one part of the original substance in 10,000 parts of the solution.[11] A 6C dilution repeats this process six times, ending up with the original material diluted by a factor of 100−6=10−12. Higher dilutions follow the same pattern. In homeopathy, a solution that is more dilute is described as having a higher potency, and more dilute substances are considered by homeopaths to be stronger and deeper-acting.[12] The end product is often so diluted that it is indistinguishable from the dilutant (typically ethanol or pure water for liquids, milk sugar for insoluble solids).[13][14][15]

Hahnemann advocated 30C dilutions for most purposes (that is, dilution by a factor of 1060).[16] Hahnemann regularly used dilutions up to 300C but opined that "there must be a limit to the matter".[17]: 322  A solution that is more dilute is described as having a higher "potency", and more dilute substances are considered by homeopaths to be stronger and deeper-acting.[18] In Hahnemann's time it was reasonable to assume that preparations could be diluted indefinitely, as the concept of the atom or molecule as the smallest possible unit of a chemical substance was just beginning to be recognized. We now know that the greatest dilution that is reasonably likely to contain one molecule of the original substance is 12C, if starting from 1 mole of original substance (see Avogadro constant for justification).

Homeopathic dilutions - Wikipedia

I seem to remember investigating this subject long ago. There is supposed to be a memory of the molecule if I remember right after it is diluted very far. This didn't make physical sense. However, things can not appear to make sense, and this can be resolved through experiment. This is the scientific method. I went through many empirical studies, and they seemed inconclusive. Maybe there was some effect, maybe not. Since the prescription varies from person to person according to their answer to questions, maybe the efficacy depends on the skill of the homeopathic doctor, so why should I take that chance? Or maybe there's nothing there. Maybe it's placebo effect. In either case I didn't want to take that chance back when I was depressed.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, I do not understand all that was in the wiki site since I did not learn how to prepare remedies in school, I only learned the principles of homeopathy and how to prescribe the correct remedies to match the patient's symptoms.

My failure to answer your questions means 2 things:

1. I do not have time
2. I choose not to answer

You can look up any of that on the internet.

It does not matter how much of the original substance is left because it is NOT that substance that is curative. As I said before, the less of the original substance is left, the more potent the remedy is, which is the reverse of conventional medicine. However, high potency remedies if not matched perfectly to the patient's symptoms will do nothing. That is why some homeopaths use lower potencies and administer them more frequently.

And you just demonstrated that you do not understand it at all. The claim is that the less of the original is there the more effective it is. That is just a nonsense claim that cannot be supported at all. It means that water can remember the medicine that it was in contact with but forgets the endless supplies of poop that it has been in contact with. And your refusal to answer such a simple question tells us that you did not understand the article at all. You should be able to do it in your head in less than ten seconds. If you understand it. You don't.

Instead of putting on a bold false front you should be asking questions.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I seem to remember investigating this subject long ago. There is supposed to be a memory of the molecule if I remember right after it is diluted very far. This didn't make physical sense. However, things can not appear to make sense, and this can be resolved through experiment. This is the scientific method. I went through many empirical studies, and they seemed inconclusive. Maybe there was some effect, maybe not. Since the prescription varies from person to person according to their answer to questions, maybe the efficacy depends on the skill of the homeopathic doctor, so why should I take that chance? Or maybe there's nothing there. Maybe it's placebo effect. In either case I didn't want to take that chance back when I was depressed.

Believers in homeopathy have never been able to support there beliefs. Because of that homeopathy "cures" in the US have to have a warning that essentially tells people that it does not work.

 

[John53]

And you just demonstrated that you do not understand it at all. The claim is that the less of the original is there the more effective it is. That is just a nonsense claim that cannot be supported at all. It means that water can remember the medicine that it was in contact with but forgets the endless supplies of poop that it has been in contact with. And your refusal to answer such a simple question tells us that you did not understand the article at all. You should be able to do it in your head in less than ten seconds. If you understand it. You don't.

Instead of putting on a bold false front you should be asking questions.

I understand your thought process but if it works for her then what's the harm? Chiro helps my Menier's and chiro is pretty much nonsense but it's the only thing I've found that has helped and I'm happy to pay the $30 a month even if I'm conning myself.

 

[Trailblazer]

Since the prescription varies from person to person according to their answer to questions, maybe the efficacy depends on the skill of the homeopathic doctor, so why should I take that chance? Or maybe there's nothing there. Maybe it's placebo effect. In either case I didn't want to take that chance back when I was depressed.

Yes, it all depends upon the skill of the homeopathic doctor. I ran the gamut of antidepressant drugs for five years and those drugs hardly did anything to help me and had many side effects. Then I found out about homeopathy and I never needed drugs again. As I recall you still suffer from the effects of the drugs prescribed by the psychiatrist and you need another expensive medication for life to control the symptoms.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I understand your thought process but if it works for her then what's the harm? Chiro helps my Menier's and chiro is pretty much nonsense but it's the only thing I've found that has helped and I'm happy to pay the $30 a month even if I'm conning myself.

The problem is that it is essentially a scam. She had mental problem which are rather difficult to treat. She may have the money to waste. And her case may not have been that serious. There are those that need serious help and snake oil may keep those people from getting the help that they need while draining their funds.

A placebo can "work" for some. And in fact that is what homeopathy is. It is a vey dishonest placebo. When it comes to serious medication a placebo does not cut it. And it would be immoral to prescribe one if real medicine was available.

 

[Trailblazer]

And you just demonstrated that you do not understand it at all

And I only read that one sentence and now I am done.
I am tired of the constant criticisms and people speaking for me as if they know what I think or what I did in my life, all based upon their own biases, so as I told @Tiberius tonight...

Happy trails.

Free will is a charm when I use it to choose.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, it all depends upon the skill of the homeopathic doctor. I ran the gamut of antidepressant drugs for five years and those drugs hardly did anything to help me and had many side effects. Then I found out about homeopathy and I never needed drugs again. As I recall you still suffer from the effects of the drugs prescribed by the psychiatrist and you need another expensive medication for life to control the symptoms.

Correlation is not necessarily causation, especially with complex matters such as mental health.

The reason that there are no side effects with homeopathy is because there is no medicine in it. If you understood homeopathy you would understand that.

Here is a very important question. Do you know what Avogadro's number is without looking it up and what it represents? I still remember it more than 40 years after I was taught it.