Is Islam Responsible for the Charlie Hebdo Murders?

[Salvador]

Not sure if you understand the english language because you never answered my question.

Sorry, I thought your question was rude.

 

[columbus]

What is going to be your reaction?

This question has been answered more than once.
Why did you write the post if it weren't applicable to the op?

Tom

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I would say blaming Islam for these crimes is like blaming guns. Guns themselves don't do anything and Islam itself doesn't do anything. These are people who were extremists, and were influenced, coerced or brainwashed to do this. Islam itself has nothing to do with it.

 

[gsa]

I would say blaming Islam for these crimes is like blaming guns. Guns themselves don't do anything and Islam itself doesn't do anything. These are people who were extremists, and were influenced, coerced or brainwashed to do this. Islam itself has nothing to do with it.

Except that Islam, particularly its treatment of blasphemy, has everything to do with the selection of the targets in this case. They were targeted because they were deemed blasphemers after all. You even have a Muslim defending it in this thread. How can you plausibly deny that there is a relationship?

 

[jonathan180iq]

Christianity had nothing to with the crusades...
Nazism had nothing do with genocide...
American Politics had nothing to do with invading Afghanistan & Iraq...
Islam has nothing to do with Militant Muslims...

That's just not how it works.

People use guns to make killing other people easier. Guns are still part of the equation.
People use religion to justify killing other people. Religion is still part of the equation.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Except that Islam, particularly its treatment of blasphemy, has everything to do with the selection of the targets in this case. They were targeted because they were deemed blasphemers after all. You even have a Muslim defending it in this thread. How can you plausibly deny that there is a relationship?

You have A Muslim, not ALL Muslims defending it.

Islam doesn't make anybody do anything. Everybody is responsible for their actions. I don't know why people keep making reasons that people don't have to take responsibility and instead blame it on something that has nothing to do with it.

Christianity had nothing to with the crusades...
Nazism had nothing do with genocide...
American Politics had nothing to do with invading Afghanistan & Iraq...
Islam has nothing to do with Militant Muslims...

That's just not how it works.

People use guns to make killing other people easier. Guns are still part of the equation.
People use religion to justify killing other people. Religion is still part of the equation.

It has nothing to do with it. With or without religion, you're still going to have people kill each other. People act as if without religion or politics everything would be peaceful everywhere. That isn't true. People can use religion to justify it but terrible things can be none without religious reasons. Most wars aren't even fought over religious reasons. It's due to territory and resources. Tribal people have fought long before our modern politics and organized religion.

Take guns and religion out of it and it wouldn't matter. If they want to harm someone, they'll use something else. There is nothing inherently evil about guns or religion. It just is. Nothing good or evil about it.

 

[gsa]

You have A Muslim, not ALL Muslims defending it.

Islam doesn't make anybody do anything. Everybody is responsible for their actions. I don't know why people keep making reasons that people don't have to take responsibility and instead blame it on something that has nothing to do with it.

OK. So ideas are meaningless. And it follows, of course, that Islam is responsible for nothing good, because it is responsible for nothing evil, and is responsible for nothing at all.

 

[Jumi]

Every time you see this criminal he smiles and laugh at you.
My question

The Charlie Hebdo attackers killed Muslims too and you support them 100%. Maybe you should think about their relatives too when you voice your support. What would you do if you were a relative of the Muslim policeman who was killed and someone came to say what the attackers did was righteous and smiled at you?

 

[Salvador]

What makes you think that my suggesting anything.
I only asked a reasonable question and its funny how people in this thread are now avoiding.

In your rape/murder/torture scenario, the rapist/murderer/torturer would be killed. People have already answered your hypothetical situation. Nobody has avoided your question.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

OK. So ideas are meaningless. And it follows, of course, that Islam is responsible for nothing good, because it is responsible for nothing evil, and is responsible for nothing at all.

You're exaggerating. Those who exaggerate don't have a good argument. Otherwise they wouldn't need to resort to exaggerations. Islam is an idea. But it all depends on what you do with it. Do you want follow the good parts of the book and have peace, which is supposed to be the main goal of the book anyway. Or you can just look at the bigoted bad ways of the Quran and follow that. Blaming it on Islam is absurd.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Here is an important difference in our ethics.
I might very well commit the murder of someone who did that to my family. But it is still murder and I would expect to be found guilty.
Maybe some leniency in the sentence, due to the circumstances. But it is still murder and must be punished. No matter how upset you are about anything, it doesn't justify murder, ever.

I think my morals are superior to yours because they will tend to result in more peace.

Tom

Yes there is a big difference between our ethics.
My belief is "an eye for an eye"......."a life for a life"
Hence my killing is an act of justification.
Now if you justify your killing as murder then you deserve to be killed as well.
So far as superior morals are concerned your act of murder talks for itself.
So far as peace is concerned it can only be achieved through honest justice.

 

[gsa]

You're exaggerating. Those who exaggerate don't have a good argument. Otherwise they wouldn't need to resort to exaggerations. Islam is an idea. But it all depends on what you do with it. Do you want follow the good parts of the book and have peace, which is supposed to be the main goal of the book anyway. Or you can just look at the bigoted bad ways of the Quran and follow that. Blaming it on Islam is absurd.

Blame is a moral term. With respect to the ideology of Islam, I am interested not so much in blame as in causality.

Yes, I imagine it would be wonderful if we could edit the texts of these religions and get rid of the bad parts. But we can't.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Blame is a moral term. With respect to the ideology of Islam, I am interested not so much in blame as in causality.

Yes, I imagine it would be wonderful if we could edit the texts of these religions and get rid of the bad parts. But we can't.

If Islam didn't exist people would still be hurt. Ideas can influence but people will always be responsible for their actions. Even if you edited out all of the bad parts, which you can't do anyway especially with the internet, it wouldn't matter. People would write copies and the ideas would still be passed. But you don't have to edit out. Just ignore it. You don't have to do it if you don't want to. Pay no heed to it.

 

[Cephus]

I would say blaming Islam for these crimes is like blaming guns. Guns themselves don't do anything and Islam itself doesn't do anything. These are people who were extremists, and were influenced, coerced or brainwashed to do this. Islam itself has nothing to do with it.

That's just wrong though. Guns, in and of themselves, have no way of convincing anyone to perform any action. They are just an inanimate object. Islam though, and you can use any philosophy, can and demonstrably does convince people to believe things they otherwise wouldn't believe and perform actions that they wouldn't otherwise perform. These killers were influenced by Islam, the same way abortion clinic bombers are influenced by Christianity. That doesn't mean every single Muslim or every single Christian is going to become a mad dog killer, but the same books are read and ostensibly followed by both the crazed extremists and the moderate theists, they just both come up with different interpretations. Islam is absolutely to blame for the actions of the Charlie Hebdo murderers, it isn't like this is an uncommon reading of the Qur'an or anything. That doesn't mean all Muslims are responsible.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Who is intollerant of your beliefs? How have they shown that they are intollerant specifically? Please include posts so we can report them to the Administrator of this site.

There are many but i will give you just one.

Drawing cartoons is only provocative if you have the mentality of a 4 year old. Welcome to Europe, where we can say whatever the hell we want about your Religion and we can draw pictures of whatever we like. We're not giving up our free speech just because some minority group is offended on religious grounds. You don't have the right not to be offended.

Please don't report to Admin.I am no cry baby.

 

[gsa]

There are many but i will give you just one.



Please don't report to Admin.I am no cry baby.

Rival? Please.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

That's just wrong though. Guns, in and of themselves, have no way of convincing anyone to perform any action. They are just an inanimate object. Islam though, and you can use any philosophy, can and demonstrably does convince people to believe things they otherwise wouldn't believe and perform actions that they wouldn't otherwise perform. These killers were influenced by Islam, the same way abortion clinic bombers are influenced by Christianity. That doesn't mean every single Muslim or every single Christian is going to become a mad dog killer, but the same books are read and ostensibly followed by both the crazed extremists and the moderate theists, they just both come up with different interpretations. Islam is absolutely to blame for the actions of the Charlie Hebdo murderers, it isn't like this is an uncommon reading of the Qur'an or anything. That doesn't mean all Muslims are responsible.

Now you can disagree with the idea, just like disagree with Nazism. But you're blaming an idea. People can be influenced but that doesn't mean you're controlled. They read and listened to Muslim extremists but you know what they could have done? Not listen to them. But instead they allowed their minds to get warped. Besides people are laying blame on Islam as if all Muslims believe in the same thing. There is more than one branch of Islam for one and not all of them have the same beliefs. Some are conservative some are lenient and some are downright insane though. We should stop laying blame on things that have no relevance.

 

[leibowde84]

There are many but i will give you just one.



Please don't report to Admin.I am no cry baby.

He's right. He is not intollerant of your beliefs. He is refusing to live under the rules of Islam. In Europe, cartoons of this sort are part of the culture. It is the responsibility of all of us to accept the FACT that not one of us has the right not to be offended. He was pretty aggressive, but there is nothing to report here. We are free on this site to criticize Islam, its rules, and the belief that all of us should adhere to restrictions that don't make sense to us. I agree, to me, I still cannot understand why someone would get so upset about a drawing mocking a prophet. But, I would like to understand why.

 

[Salvador]

If Islam didn't exist people would still be hurt. Ideas can influence but people will always be responsible for their actions. Even if you edited out all of the bad parts, which you can't do anyway especially with the internet, it wouldn't matter. People would write copies and the ideas would still be passed. But you don't have to edit out. Just ignore it. You don't have to do it if you don't want to. Pay no heed to it.

I agree with you that non-Muslims should simply ignore Islam. I think that only the Jihadist are worthy of our attention.

 

[gsa]

Now you can disagree with the idea, just like disagree with Nazism. But you're blaming an idea. People can be influenced but that doesn't mean you're controlled. They read and listened to Muslim extremists but you know what they could have done? Not listen to them. But instead they allowed their minds to get warped. Besides people are laying blame on Islam as if all Muslims believe in the same thing. There is more than one branch of Islam for one and not all of them have the same beliefs. Some are conservative some are lenient and some are downright insane though. We should stop laying blame on things that have no relevance.

But with National Socialism, for example, we recognize that there are bad ideas, and there are consequences to people believing in bad ideas. What's the difference here?