Is Islam Responsible for the Charlie Hebdo Murders?

[Theweirdtophat]

Certainly. I'm not denying that people are going to do bad things. But the point of this topic was whether or not the murders at CH were caused by a religion, specifically Islam.
In the CH setting, were it not for religious teaching (correct or incorrect) would those people still be alive? Were it not for the religious framework that has somehow permeated several facets of Muslim society, would they or would they not still be going home to their families tonight?

Absolutely, blame and punish the individual. Without question. But why does the framework in which they were taught to behave get a free pass?


Right. And whatever it is that they chose to use as their justification needs to be examined. It doesn't matter if they claimed their allegiance to the mighty purple sky dragon before killing those people. If that were the case, then the teachings of the mighty purple sky dragon needs to be examined, not just by the outside world but by those who pray to the sky dragon daily.

The pseudo-religious overtones of organizations like ISIL, who who prey on the immature via appeals to emotion and national or familial pride, are able to seep deep into the minds and hearts of those people who hold Islam dear using what motivator? You'd be foolish not to include Islam in your list of motivators. Do they not claim authority from Allah and then teach from the sayings of their prophet as a rallying cry strong enough to persuade these people to forfeit their lives for the cause?

I don't know which country you're from, but if you were anywhere near the United States in the early 2000s you could witness, first hand, the power of a nation-wide propaganda machine, playing on several different facets of American society as a call to war, for various different reasons. Would you say that only the soldiers who pulled the triggers, or dropped the bombs, on the battlefield were to blame for the deaths of innocent Iraqis and Afghans, or would you undoubtedly include that administration, its foreign policy, the american media, and the populace at large for having a hand in those deaths?

These militants view what they are doing as a holy war, don't they? And how could they do that without internalizing the full authority of a god and his religion to back them? How would they motivate others to join them without invoking that same authority?

You know, most violent people will often try to justify what they've done. Either to make themselves look better or to make themselves better as to find a reason to do horrible things. You couldn't imagine what kind of justifications people make. Just because they CLAIM to follow Allah, doesn't mean they actually do. Anybody can say "Well I'm doing this for God" But if you examined it, what would you solve? The idea is out. You can't destroy ideas but people can choose to follow them or not. If you were going to examine it, look at the twisted perversion of the religion, not the religion itself. ISIS claims they fight for Allah but they use it as an excuse to hurt people. They've already disobeyed Allah by torturing others, compelling others to believe ect, which by the way, is forbidden in the Quran. Besides no matter who they claim to serve it will never be a justification to hurt others.

It's very easy to manipulate the uneducated like some in the middle east where there's illiterate folk being preached by a Muslim cleric who's an extremist and his own agenda, and the people have no other kind of information to look up and if they do, it's heavily censored. It's clear that it'd be easy to manipulate others when they have no other information to look up. Like the people in North Korea since their information is heavily censored. It doesn't condone what they've done as they always have a choice to not do it, but it's understandable as to why some would be able to be manipulated like that.

American soldiers had a choice to hurt others or not. They have done things they shouldn't have done by hurting innocents. Of course not every American soldier has hurt innocents either. The average American citizen however didn't cause their deaths. I would look more closely at the person with the gun before looking at others.

There are not so different as to be completely different faiths though. People do NEED to realize that Islam can be a dangerous thing. The only place were it has gotten worse for Muslims is mainly (and ironically) in Muslim majority areas (and their Asian peripheries).

Of course Islam CAN be dangerous. Anything can be dangerous if it's twisted around. I've seen Muslims face more unfair treatment from Europe and America which are not Muslim majority countries. People are already being manipulated into thinking all Muslims are bad.

 

[xkatz]

I've seen Muslims face more unfair treatment from Europe and America which are not Muslim majority countries.

While I don't doubt you, what issues Muslims face in the West are a lot less severe and common than what they usually experience elsewhere.

 

[NoX]

Sure. Along with all of these: Islam and blasphemy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please write your own idea, as I said I wont read long articles from anti-islamic sites. If you dont have an idea, read it and write in brief their claim as like its your ideas. But do not copy-paste links to me.

So this verse is a part of ideology, then there cant be contradictory rules in the same ideology. There cant be contradictory ideas in the same ideology.

 

[gsa]

Please write your own idea, as I said I wont read long articles from anti-islamic sites. If you dont have an idea, read it and write in brief their claim as like its your ideas. But do not copy-paste links to me.

So this verse is a part of ideology, then there cant be contradictory rules in the same ideology. There cant be contradictory ideas in the same ideology.

Wikipedia is anti-Islamic? Anyway, I was referencing the verses from the Quran and hadiths cited therein. And if there can't be (alleged) contradictions within an ideology, then I guess we have to toss, for example, Communism, National Socialism...I'm not even sure that we're left with anything that can be called an ideology.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes you right he is not just intolerant but extremely intolerant.Now who asked him to live under the rules of Islam.
Now you do have a legit question and if you want an answer then answer my question in post 118.

You are asking him to live under the rule of Islam that satirical cartoons of muhammad are unacceptable. Are you not. And I already answered your question in 118. See response above.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes you right he is not just intolerant but extremely intolerant.Now who asked him to live under the rules of Islam.
Now you do have a legit question and if you want an answer then answer my question in post 118.

"He is refusing to live under the rules of Islam. In Europe, cartoons of this sort are part of the culture. It is the responsibility of all of us to accept the FACT that not one of us has the right not to be offended."

 

[faroukfarouk]

I am not the one who derives my ethics from the same source as ISIS.
Islam.
Tom

Well if you don't live up to your standards then you going to get their disease.

 

[jonathan180iq]

The ignore button makes threads so hard to follow...

 

[leibowde84]

Well they made a lot of money but they could not take it with them.
They deserved what they got for being insensitive.

You are certainly being insensitive of the rights of journalists to publish satirical drawings, aren't you? Do you think that you deserve death, or is there a double standard when anything Islamic is involved?

It may be immoral to you but to me its moral.

When you live in a country, you are obligated to live by their laws. It is not illegal in any way to make cartoons of this nature. It is, however, illegal to murder someone in cold-blood. To me, it is wrong to disregard legality just because YOU think it's ok. We are trying to have a society here.

Their refusal in bending and their courage cost them lives.If these insensitive publications continue then expect more deaths.

Well, if this is the case, then I would say that you should expect more an more people to fight against Islam, which is a shame. If Muslims are unable to control themselves in this respect, the dangers of Islam are made visible. Again, I do not share your view of Muslims, as I know many who are completely reasonable, so I hope that more cold-blooded murders do not occur.

Is there an alternative?

Yes, be a mature, decent person and turn the other cheek. There are tons of publications that offend me. I simply ignore them. Why is that not an option for you?

 

[NoX]

Wikipedia is anti-Islamic? Anyway, I was referencing the verses from the Quran and hadiths cited therein. And if there can't be (alleged) contradictions within an ideology, then I guess we have to toss, for example, Communism, National Socialism...I'm not even sure that we're left with anything that can be called an ideology.

So which verse of Quran could be shown as mainstay for CH false flag ?

 

[faroukfarouk]

"He is refusing to live under the rules of Islam. In Europe, cartoons of this sort are part of the culture. It is the responsibility of all of us to accept the FACT that not one of us has the right not to be offended."

Why the double standards?

 

[leibowde84]

Yes you right he is not just intolerant but extremely intolerant.Now who asked him to live under the rules of Islam.
Now you do have a legit question and if you want an answer then answer my question in post 118.

So, you think he is intolerant, yet you provide no evidence to support this. But, anyways, aren't you intolerant of the European culture which allows satirical cartoons of religious figures? They have their right to publish, and you have your right to hate it. No one has the right to be violent. We have to learn to accept each other's differences.

And, warning somehow makes the murders better? If I said to you that unless you give up your faith, I was going to hurt you. Then I warned you again. Then I warned you again. And, then finally, after you refused to convert, I murdered you, you think that would be justified? If not, you are presenting a clear double standard where, for some reason, religious beliefs are put into some special category.

 

[leibowde84]

Why the double standards?

It just isn't true. That is mere propaganda, trying to trick you into believing something that isn't true. Christians and Jews had satirical cartoons insulting their religions as well. Instead of acting immature and rioting in the street / committing murders, they took the magazine to court. They lost, and the French Court refused to censor the cartoons.

As a citizen of the west, I grew up in a 50% Jewish household. I also went to a Catholic Grade School and High School where I heard anti-semitic remarks on a regular basis. There was also a huge anti-christian presence when I went to Hebrew School every Saturday. They knew I wasn't going to be Bar-Mitzvah'd so they treated me like garbage. But, again, I don't hold it against them. They are free to speak their minds, no matter how much it bothers me.

The reason why we don't hear about the other cartoons is because the Christian/Jewish communities act in a much more mature way and either go to court or just ignore them. That is my point. But, again, the cartoon you cited is complete propaganda, as I see anti-semitic and anti-christian publications all the time (in the US at least). Even denying the Holocaust is completely legal in the US.

 

[leibowde84]

Why the double standards?

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The above link proves that your claim is false. Take a look and let me know what you think. The only difference seems to be that the Jewish community took the magazine to court while the Islamic community took to the streets with destruction and violence. It seems clear that one reaction was immoral and one wasn't.

 

[gsa]

So which verse of Quran could be shown as mainstay for CH false flag ?

The fact that you believe Charlie Hebdo was a false flag operation just demonstrates that it is impossible to have a reasonable discussion about these issues with you.

 

[leibowde84]

So which verse of Quran could be shown as mainstay for CH false flag ?

Beyond speculation, what evidence do you have to support this claim? I believe you were asked before, and you failed to produce any objective reasoning for making this jump.

 

[faroukfarouk]

It just isn't true. That is mere propaganda, trying to trick you into believing something that isn't true. Christians and Jews had satirical cartoons insulting their religions as well. Instead of acting immature and rioting in the street / committing murders, they took the magazine to court. They lost, and the French Court refused to censor the cartoons.

As a citizen of the west, I grew up in a 50% Jewish household. I also went to a Catholic Grade School and High School where I heard anti-semitic remarks on a regular basis. There was also a huge anti-christian presence when I went to Hebrew School every Saturday. They knew I wasn't going to be Bar-Mitzvah'd so they treated me like garbage. But, again, I don't hold it against them. They are free to speak their minds, no matter how much it bothers me.

The reason why we don't hear about the other cartoons is because the Christian/Jewish communities act in a much more mature way and either go to court or just ignore them. That is my point. But, again, the cartoon you cited is complete propaganda, as I see anti-semitic and anti-christian publications all the time (in the US at least). Even denying the Holocaust is completely legal in the US.

Ha,ha........now you call double standards propaganda.Are you not showing your true colours?
Read it here.
Glenn Greenwald on Charlie Hebdo and Jewish Hypocrisy | Occidental Dissent

 

[NoX]

The fact that you believe Charlie Hebdo was a false flag operation just demonstrates that it is impossible to have a reasonable discussion about these issues with you.

Look, you know we will never be agree, dont waste your time and I also mine too We will die as Muslims and you will die as a non-Muslim.

 

[leibowde84]

Ha,ha........now you call double standards propaganda.Are you not showing your true colours?
Read it here.
Glenn Greenwald on Charlie Hebdo and Jewish Hypocrisy | Occidental Dissent

The cartoonists were killed before CH had a chance to fire them, right? That's pretty easy to figure out. I agree that they should fire the cartoonists if they feel that their financial stability as a business might be damaged. But, since the cartoonists were murdered, they became martyrs for free-expression. Further, their deaths caused more CH magazines to be sold than ever before. So, this would be a different situation. But, CH is also free to fire the cartoonists if they just don't like the cartoons or are offended themselves.

That was also 6 years ago. But, did you get to read the article I sent to you. I read and commented on yours, can you show me a bit of decency and do the same?

 

[gsa]

Ha,ha........now you call double standards propaganda.Are you not showing your true colours?
Read it here.
Glenn Greenwald on Charlie Hebdo and Jewish Hypocrisy | Occidental Dissent

It is fascinating that you are linking to a website that describes itself as "Pro-White, Pro-South, Pro-Independence." I did not realize that you were a fan of neo-Confederate extremist groups. It is definitely a club that you would not be allowed to enter, by the way.