Is Islam Responsible for the Charlie Hebdo Murders?

[faroukfarouk]

I don't agree with bigotry. I have a female doctor. I have some gay friends. I have some Jewish friends. I have a couple of Muslim friends on Facebook. If any Muslims were to exist in my community, then I'd probably have some personal Muslim friends. I accept everybody for who they are. I don't judge people's lifestyles. So, Faroukfarouk, I think that we can agree that we should embrace people who are different than ourselves. Let's live and let live.

Salvador
I don't have a problem living with anyone.I am not a racist.But when it comes to religion then you must draw a line.If you breach sensitive issues then we respond in a peaceful manner but if all avenues fails then you cannot blame anyone for violent actions.
I live in a area that has diverse religions.We even have Atheist and we get along very well.No one minds your business and likewise we do the same.Everyone lives in peace.But once you attack my religion then its trouble.

 

[gsa]

Salvador
I don't have a problem living with anyone.I am not a racist.But when it comes to religion then you must draw a line.If you breach sensitive issues then we respond in a peaceful manner but if all avenues fails then you cannot blame anyone for violent actions.
I live in a area that has diverse religions.We even have Atheist and we get along very well.No one minds your business and likewise we do the same.Everyone lives in peace.But once you attack my religion then its trouble.

If this is truly the case, then why should the West tolerate Islam at all? If you can't take criticism, you have no place in Western society.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Salvador
I don't have a problem living with anyone.I am not a racist.But when it comes to religion then you must draw a line.If you breach sensitive issues then we respond in a peaceful manner but if all avenues fails then you cannot blame anyone for violent actions.
I live in a area that has diverse religions.We even have Atheist and we get along very well.No one minds your business and likewise we do the same.Everyone lives in peace.But once you attack my religion then its trouble.

People are not going to always agree with your religion or mine or anyone else's really. Some will be downright offensive, but if someone insults your religion and insults it in the most offending manner, do you know what you should do? Do nothing. As long as they aren't really hurting anyone, it shouldn't matter if they offend your religion. Of course you have the right to be offended but you don't have to listen to them or fight them. Fighting because they offend your religion is not a good excuse. Think of it this way. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe Allah is testing you, to see if you will react hostile if someone offends your religion? Those that act hostile due to insults have great difficulty restraining themselves. I mean, do insults against your religion really affect the way you worship or the way you live? It shouldn't. It will if you allow it to.

 

[leibowde84]

Salvador
I don't have a problem living with anyone.I am not a racist.But when it comes to religion then you must draw a line.If you breach sensitive issues then we respond in a peaceful manner but if all avenues fails then you cannot blame anyone for violent actions.
I live in a area that has diverse religions.We even have Atheist and we get along very well.No one minds your business and likewise we do the same.Everyone lives in peace.But once you attack my religion then its trouble.

I'm sorry, but if peaceful avenues do not work, it is because those attempting to use them are not doing an adequate job of convincing people. And, if they are unable to convince others that they are in the right, they should have the humility to accept that they might just have to "suck it up." Think about all of the people who are against gay-marriage in the US. They are vocal. They do things that seem completely immoral (protesting at soldiers' funerals). Yet, they refrain from violence. Trying peaceful means for a few years is not nearly enough to consider them exhausted. The murderers jumped the gun by about 20 years.

 

[leibowde84]

People are not going to always agree with your religion or mine or anyone else's really. Some will be downright offensive, but if someone insults your religion and insults it in the most offending manner, do you know what you should do? Do nothing. As long as they aren't really hurting anyone, it shouldn't matter if they offend your religion. Of course you have the right to be offended but you don't have to listen to them or fight them. Fighting because they offend your religion is not a good excuse. Think of it this way. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe Allah is testing you, to see if you will react hostile if someone offends your religion? Those that act hostile due to insults have great difficulty restraining themselves. I mean, do insults against your religion really affect the way you worship or the way you live? It shouldn't. It will if you allow it to.

Very true. I feel the same way. Violence and expression are on two very different levels. Death is permanent, while emotional responses are not.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Very true. I feel the same way. Violence and expression are on two very different levels. Death is permanent, while emotional responses are not.

Thanks I think it's strange for those to believe that murder can be justified. Murder is the unjust killing of an innocent, therefore murder can never be justified. You never kill anyone unless you absolutely have no other choice. I don't want anyone dead. Not even the most awful people on this planet. What do I prove when I resort to such violence? That I can be just as brutal if not more so than them? The thing is with violent people is that I don't want to be anything like them. I wouldn't kill or torture criminals. People have to be able to take criticism. Otherwise it's recommended that they live as a hermit on an island. Try as you may you will never ever be able to convince everyone to respect you're beliefs. You take the punches and move on.

Those that follow Islam should say. "You know what do I care what they say about my religion? I'm following the path that is right for me, and their opinion will never change that. I'm going to show my true love and devotion to Allah by not resorting to violence.

 

[gsa]

I know that some Western share you same opinion , but i am curious why NO one made thread "by Westerns" critic policy in Syria and Libya and Iraq or Palestine .


Do you ever post a thread or read a thread made by "Western" critic the policy of West in Syria or Iraq or Libya ?

for me never .

I don't know, but I assume the topic rarely comes up in religious forums. Islamist violence has a religious dimension, though, which explains the presence of threads like this one.

 

[faroukfarouk]

If this is truly the case, then why should the West tolerate Islam at all? If you can't take criticism, you have no place in Western society.

If they advocate freedom of religion then they have to be tolerant.Now what has criticism got to do with it.You are free to be critical but be very sensitive to issues that mock ones faith.If you are ignorant of what is sensitive then we will always warn you but if you do not heed the warning then blame yourself.
In 2006, after CH reprinted those disgusting cartoons of our prophet French President Jacques Chirac condemned the publications and warned against such “obvious provocations.”
Now if you provoke with intent then expect a beautiful response.So why not blame the provoker?

 

[faroukfarouk]

I'm sorry, but if peaceful avenues do not work, it is because those attempting to use them are not doing an adequate job of convincing people. And, if they are unable to convince others that they are in the right, they should have the humility to accept that they might just have to "suck it up." Think about all of the people who are against gay-marriage in the US. They are vocal. They do things that seem completely immoral (protesting at soldiers' funerals). Yet, they refrain from violence. Trying peaceful means for a few years is not nearly enough to consider them exhausted. The murderers jumped the gun by about 20 years.

Please stop making excuses to justify those disgusting cartoons.
Now what about those double standards?

 

[leibowde84]

If they advocate freedom of religion then they have to be tolerant.Now what has criticism got to do with it.You are free to be critical but be very sensitive to issues that mock ones faith.If you are ignorant of what is sensitive then we will always warn you but if you do not heed the warning then blame yourself.
In 2006, after CH reprinted those disgusting cartoons of our prophet French President Jacques Chirac condemned the publications and warned against such “obvious provocations.”
Now if you provoke with intent then expect a beautiful response.So why not blame the provoker?

The entire point is that warning of an irrational response to a publication is not justification for murder. Islamic officials are free to request anything, but, since France is a free-country and the satirical cartoons were not criminal in any way, CH has the right to refuse. Now, CH does not like organized religion in general. They are free to have that view and they are very open with expressing it. They are also a satirical publication. Their entire business model is to poke fun at social issues, so if they adhere to your request, what would be next? Everyone would start requesting them to stop, and their magazine would go out of business. Plus, they are under absolutely no requirement to not offend religious people ... in reality, that is their goal. And, I for one don't want to give into terrorists who use religious beliefs as justification for murder. It's like paying ransoms to ISIS. It creates bad precedent.

I asked you this before, but you did not respond. If I asked you to give up your faith because I felt that it was offensive that you did not adhere to the rules of my religion and I threatened your life if you refused, would you give in? Of course not, and I wouldn't blame you for doing so. You would stand by your faith, and that is very commendable. Well, CH stood by their faith in the notion of a free-press and refused to cave-in to the demands of terrorists.

And, just so we are clear on what terrorism actually means:

Terrorism = "the use of violence in the pursuit of religioius or political aims."

 

[leibowde84]

Please stop making excuses to justify those disgusting cartoons.
Now what about those double standards?

I showed you conclusively, and you agreed, providing an article that proved my point, illustrating that not only Islam, but also Christianity and Judaism were common targets of the satirical cartoons. And, I am not justifying the cartoons, I am fighting for CH's right to publish them.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe Allah is testing you,

Well done you are 100% right so far as testing is concerned but he is testing to see how much love you have.

 

[leibowde84]

Well done you are 100% right so far as testing is concerned but he is testing to see how much love you have.

Last time I checked, murdering people in cold blood does not express any kind of "love." If it is mistakenly seen in that way, the reasoning behind it is extremely flawed and destructive to society.

 

[faroukfarouk]

The entire point is that warning of an irrational response to a publication is not justification for murder. Islamic officials are free to request anything, but, since France is a free-country and the satirical cartoons were not criminal in any way, CH has the right to refuse. Now, CH does not like organized religion in general. They are free to have that view and they are very open with expressing it. They are also a satirical publication. Their entire business model is to poke fun at social issues, so if they adhere to your request, what would be next? Everyone would start requesting them to stop, and their magazine would go out of business. Plus, they are under absolutely no requirement to not offend religious people ... in reality, that is their goal. And, I for one don't want to give into terrorists who use religious beliefs as justification for murder. It's like paying ransoms to ISIS. It creates bad precedent.

I asked you this before, but you did not respond. If I asked you to give up your faith because I felt that it was offensive that you did not adhere to the rules of my religion and I threatened your life if you refused, would you give in? Of course not, and I wouldn't blame you for doing so. You would stand by your faith, and that is very commendable. Well, CH stood by their faith in the notion of a free-press and refused to cave-in to the demands of terrorists.

And, just so we are clear on what terrorism actually means:

Terrorism = "the use of violence in the pursuit of religioius or political aims."

So they have freedom of speech and freedom to publish whatever they want.
Now tell me why they fired Mauric Sinet?
Why the double standards?
What was their intent on publishing those disgusting cartoons?
It easy to point fingers but why are the finger pointers running away from these important question.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Last time I checked, murdering people in cold blood does not express any kind of "love." If it is mistakenly seen in that way, the reasoning behind it is extremely flawed and destructive to society.

You call it murder and i call it provocation killing.
Big difference.

 

[leibowde84]

So they have freedom of speech and freedom to publish whatever they want.
Now tell me why they fired Mauric Sinet?
Why the double standards?
What was their intent on publishing those disgusting cartoons?
It easy to point fingers but why are the finger pointers running away from these important question.

We aren't. If there is a double standard, let's change it. Work to do that. It will take years, not days, but it can be done. 1st step would be changing the image of Islam that seems to justify violence for religious reasons. Until that aspect of the way Islam is viewed is changed, these kinds of publications will continue. And, their intent, like I said, was to show French citizens their views on organized religion, which they despise. Why shouldn't they be permitted to do so.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I showed you conclusively, and you agreed, providing an article that proved my point, illustrating that not only Islam, but also Christianity and Judaism were common targets of the satirical cartoons. And, I am not justifying the cartoons, I am fighting for CH's right to publish them.

Good try and you keep avoiding my question on Mauric Sinet firing.

 

[leibowde84]

Good try and you keep avoiding my question on Mauric Sinet firing.

Good try?

 

[leibowde84]

You call it murder and i call it provocation killing.
Big difference.

Under french law it was murder via terrorism.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

You call it murder and i call it provocation killing.
Big difference.

It's not a big difference to the one getting killed now is it? One should think, is killing someone over a cartoon can really be justified? Even if it offends your religion. The punishment doesn't really fit the crime, does it? Not that the person should really be punished anyway since he has freedom of speech. Also if you want to stick up for Allah, that's not necessary. He's God. I don't think he needs you to stick up for him. Neither does Muhammad.