Is Islamic faith reasonable.

[waitasec]

Is Islamic faith reasonable.

is any religious belief more reasonable than another?
:no:

 

[Gharib]

I know what the Qur'an and the hadiths say about the Night Journey, but how can you tell if such events ever took place. I know how some Muslims interpret this event (Night Journey).

It is not just the journey to Jerusalem and back to Mecca. It is travelling on mythological divine horse in a single night. It is also about his ascent to the heavens. It is more like one of the tales from Arabian Nights, because the Night Journey sounds more like fairytale or fable.

But the problem is, how can we took place. It required more about faith than evidences or reality.

You can quote what it say in the Qur'an or the Hadiths or whatever Islamic traditions or interpretations you like, you simply can't supply the evidences to being a real journey. The whole thing defy reality, the laws of nature (or physics); it's supernatural.

I would probably accept such miracles when I was in my teens or even early 20's. But since then, I've seen more in life, and I had not seen any miracles or supernatural event. I haven't seen any spirit, whether they be angelic or demonic, ghosts or ghouls, and I certainly haven't seen any smokeless fiery beings (jinns).

To me, faith is more like wishful thinking than reality.

Remember when I said that first you must have some other things sorted?

Let me explain what I meant by that:
1. You do not believe that Allah/God exists.
2. You do not believe that angels exist.
3. You do not believe that Paradise and Hell exist.
4. You do not believe that Muhammed was a Prophet.
5. How can you believe in the Night Journey?

The people asked him to prove that he had been in Jerusalem and to describe the Mosque, knowing that he had never been there, so he described it to them.

Further they were suspicious that maybe someone had told him about it before so that's how he knew of it. So he told them about a group of shepherds who had lost an animal and were a week or so away from Makkah and were headed this way. The people kept waiting at the cities main entrance for these shepherds to come and eventually they did come and informed their owner of the lost animal.

And I too have not seen a ghost, or a jinn or a unicorn or a buraq. Maybe the way you approach this is wrong, if I made it a condition to not believe unless I saw a real jinn in it's real form with my own eyes, then I would close all the doors of 'belief' to myself.

You don't necessarily have to see something to believe in it. I haven't ever seen you but I believe you exist and have come to know many things about you which you have told me. This same approach must be taken with all things.

 

[waitasec]

You don't necessarily have to see something to believe in it. I haven't ever seen you but I believe you exist and have come to know many things about you which you have told me. This same approach must be taken with all things.

you are having a real conversation with actual responses from a real person.

 

[Gharib]

you are having a real conversation with actual responses from a real person.

Have you ever seen him? And he says he is a male, neither of us are sure, but we just believe he is because he says so. Much like religious scriptures say so.

See how it works?

 

[waitasec]

Have you ever seen him? And he says he is a male, neither of us are sure, but we just believe he is because he says so. Much like religious scriptures say so.

See how it works?

now you are changing the subject.

see how that works

 

[gnostic]

4. You do not believe that Muhammed was a Prophet.

No. You're wrong with this.

I do believe that Muhammad was a prophet...at least a prophet for Islam. I believe that he is historical person who started a new religion, hence a prophet.

I just don't believe in the Qur'an: the alleged miracles and revelations in the Qur'an (or in the traditions). I don't believe that the Qur'an was EVER written by Allah. And I don't believe in his claim that he met archangel Gabriel. That's what I find unacceptable and unreasonable to believe.

Like I said before the Night Journey sounds more like fable or fairytale. Arthra stated that it was only spiritual journey, not a physical one, but this also make it hard to believe and accept.

I believe in the historical Muhammad (and that not in dispute), just not the legends surrounding him (hence the traditions), after his death.

You shouldn't feel bad, because I don't accept miracles or revelations from Moses and other Hebrew prophets, nor do I accept Jesus' miracles. I can accept some teachings, like don't murder or commit adultery, or treat others with compassion (which is also taught in Islam), but all the miracle stuffs are what make not believe in these religions. Do you understand what I mean?

 

[Gharib]

No. You're wrong with this.

I'm not, I must admit I didn't know your views regarding Muhammed, but I am not wrong in what I said.

You do not believe that he received any kind of divine revelation by rejecting his meeting with Gabriel, and you only accept of the Qur'an as 'true' (to an extent) verses that we could call 'are a guide to a nice way of living which any man could come up with'.

I understand how believing that he is a Prophet for the Muslims works. I too believe that Moses was the last Prophet in the eyes of the Jews. It's what they believe, you are simply stating my beliefs and not your own thoughts/opinion.

I do believe that Muhammad was a prophet...at least a prophet for Islam. I believe that he is historical person who started a new religion, hence a prophet.

A Prophet to the Muslims, yes. But to you, just another man.

I just don't believe in the Qur'an: the alleged miracles and revelations in the Qur'an (or in the traditions). I don't believe that the Qur'an was EVER written by Allah. And I don't believe in his claim that he met archangel Gabriel. That's what I find unacceptable and unreasonable to believe.

I agree with one thing, Allah did not write the Qur'an, He authored it (but I know what you mean). I can also understand how you would not believe his claims of having met or even received revelations through Gabriel, but would the testimony of a third party hold any weight in your eyes?

Like I said before the Night Journey sounds more like fable or fairytale. Arthra stated that it was only spiritual journey, not a physical one, but this also make it hard to believe and accept.

From what I have read, the majority view is that it was a physical (body and soul) journey.

I believe in the historical Muhammad (and that not in dispute), just not the legends surrounding him (hence the traditions), after his death.

You shouldn't feel bad, because I don't accept miracles or revelations from Moses and other Hebrew prophets, nor do I accept Jesus' miracles. I can accept some teachings, like don't murder or commit adultery, or treat others with compassion (which is also taught in Islam), but all the miracle stuffs are what make not believe in these religions. Do you understand what I mean?

I understand you perfectly, I am not offended or saddened by your views, I just think that maybe you need to change your views as in what to look for in a miracle. For example, as I mentioned before, if I had to make a condition upon myself that I would not believe unless I saw Allah with my own 2 eyes out in the open, then I can tell you I would not be a Muslim. The Qur'an says that he exists, and presents examples that lead to his existence/presence without actually seeing him.

 

[FearGod]

No. You're wrong with this.

I do believe that Muhammad was a prophet...at least a prophet for Islam. I believe that he is historical person who started a new religion, hence a prophet.

I just don't believe in the Qur'an: the alleged miracles and revelations in the Qur'an (or in the traditions). I don't believe that the Qur'an was EVER written by Allah. And I don't believe in his claim that he met archangel Gabriel. That's what I find unacceptable and unreasonable to believe.

Like I said before the Night Journey sounds more like fable or fairytale. Arthra stated that it was only spiritual journey, not a physical one, but this also make it hard to believe and accept.

I believe in the historical Muhammad (and that not in dispute), just not the legends surrounding him (hence the traditions), after his death.

You shouldn't feel bad, because I don't accept miracles or revelations from Moses and other Hebrew prophets, nor do I accept Jesus' miracles. I can accept some teachings, like don't murder or commit adultery, or treat others with compassion (which is also taught in Islam), but all the miracle stuffs are what make not believe in these religions. Do you understand what I mean?

The night journey from Makkah to Jerusalem was mentioned in the quran as follow :

(17:1) Holy is He Who carried His servant by night from the Holy Mosque (in Makkah) to the farther Mosque (in Jerusalem) whose surroundings We have blessed that We might show him some of Our Signs.1 Indeed He alone is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.

The quran didnt mention what was the method for the journey,but only what we
got is the sayings of people that they heard so and so,which we cant confirm,but
what is confirmed that the journey was real according to the quran.

So what is the strange on that,all muslims at that period of time didnt believe that,but for us as we know now that travelling in faster speeds could happen,then it should be easier for us to believe that such journey could happen similar to the ufos in which many had confirmed that they saw them travelling in high speeds.

(UFU) - These craft can do some decidedly odd things, they can hover silently, they can do seemingly impossible manoeuvres and whiz off at incredible speeds. When they are tracked on radar they have been found to be doing acceleration which no human could survive. That is of course when they can be tracked, most of the time they cannot be tracked on radar due to what is presumably some sort of stealth type technology - this must be very advanced stealth technology as none of the current publicly known stealth aircraft are completely radar invisible.

Also Mohamed pbuh was in knowledge that traveling in fast speeds will happen as signs (that the world is close to its end)

Great distances will be traversed in short spans of time.(Ahmad, Musnad)

So as "eslam" said that the problem is on faith,if you dont have faith,then you will not believe anything.

The quran confirmed that Jesus pbuh born without father(no sperm) that is hard to
be believed if you dont have the faith.

 

[1robin]

For clarity, read the words I wrote.

Apparently you cannot discuss anything without sarcasm. So I reinstate my position of non-interest in a debate with you. I have rethought your position about this thread and believe you are wrong. In threads where I have found similar points about Christianity, getting offended or angry never have crossed my mind. Why are you spending so much time in a thread you find offensive?

 

[1robin]

Let me just quickly answer you yes ALL the wars were Justified at-least in my opinion why don't you ask specific questions for example what was the reason for ''war a'' or ''war b'' instead of addressing it like that Mohammed(saws) was a violent man.

Why don't you focus on one subject instead of making a story if ''A'' happened then he couldn't be a ''B'' atleast that is what i get from your first message.
Please don't leave and ask if you want I like questions but be sincere with them..

Hello FOuad. Since my original point said only that Muhammad's battle's were not all defensive. You have agreed to this so there is no contention to discuss. Whether they were justified is a matter of opinion and would be hard to establish. I did say I would debate that however and will stand by what I said If that is your choice. I believe maybe a discussion of atrocities committed by Muhammad, or the deficiencies inherent in haveing only one author for the quran, or the non-inspired nature of some parts of the Quran would be more revealing. It is your choice. I will only deal with you as far as my adding more claims to my original ones and my promise of non assertion still applies to the thread as a whole. So pick your poison and you will get quite a bit of sincere questioning.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Why are you spending so much time in a thread you find offensive?

Why are you spending so much avoiding my questions?

 

[FearGod]

Alphonse de Lamartine (1790-1869) was a French poet and writer revered by many. He is considered one of the first “Romantic” poets, said to be an inspiration to many after him.

Lamartine the French poet says:'' The remarkable incident in my whole life, is that I have studied the life of prophet Mohammed , and I realized its greatness and eternity , who dare to compare any man from history with prophet Mohammed ?!who is greater than him ,looking to all criterion measuring man's greatness?!! His behavior in the time of glory, his ambitions to spread the massage, his long lasting prayers, and his celestial interlocution all are evidence to a perfect faith that helped him to establish the basics of his massage . the messenger , the project ,the conqueror ,the corrector of the believes the one who established worshipping which not depend on images ,is Mohammed .He has destroyed all believes that adopting mediator between the creator and his creation

 

[1robin]

Why are you spending so much avoiding my questions?

Because you are spending a lot of time asking them. You seemed to have avoided my last question as well.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Watch what Lesley Hazleton (a non muslim woman) said about the quran after reading it verse by verse.

[youtube]3Y2Or0LlO6g[/youtube]
Lesley Hazleton: A "tourist" reads the Koran - YouTube

I fail to see why her testimony could be considered compelling. She's a writer trying to sell a product which is her book on Mohammed. Despite the fact that she appears to value the Koran as poetry, unless she has actually converted to Islam we can deduce that she finds its claims to be all together rubbish.

 

[FearGod]

I fail to see why her testimony could be considered compelling. She's a writer trying to sell a product which is her book on Mohammed. Despite the fact that she appears to value the Koran as poetry, unless she has actually converted to Islam we can deduce that she finds its claims to be all together rubbish.

So she was able to fool all the audience on the stage,but you was wise enough that you discovered her purpose was just business,she try to show the quran as a lovely book in order to achieve more sales,but if she show the quran as offensive,then she will achieve a low sales,logic...i am thinking to write a book titled "how lovely the quran is", i may become a millionaire.

 

[England my lionheart]

The night journey from Makkah to Jerusalem was mentioned in the quran as follow :

(17:1) Holy is He Who carried His servant by night from the Holy Mosque (in Makkah) to the farther Mosque (in Jerusalem) whose surroundings We have blessed that We might show him some of Our Signs.1 Indeed He alone is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.

The quran didnt mention what was the method for the journey,but only what we
got is the sayings of people that they heard so and so,which we cant confirm,but
what is confirmed that the journey was real according to the quran.

So what is the strange on that,all muslims at that period of time didnt believe that,but for us as we know now that travelling in faster speeds could happen,then it should be easier for us to believe that such journey could happen similar to the ufos in which many had confirmed that they saw them travelling in high speeds.

(UFU) - These craft can do some decidedly odd things, they can hover silently, they can do seemingly impossible manoeuvres and whiz off at incredible speeds. When they are tracked on radar they have been found to be doing acceleration which no human could survive. That is of course when they can be tracked, most of the time they cannot be tracked on radar due to what is presumably some sort of stealth type technology - this must be very advanced stealth technology as none of the current publicly known stealth aircraft are completely radar invisible.

Also Mohamed pbuh was in knowledge that traveling in fast speeds will happen as signs (that the world is close to its end)

Great distances will be traversed in short spans of time.(Ahmad, Musnad)

So as "eslam" said that the problem is on faith,if you dont have faith,then you will not believe anything.

The quran confirmed that Jesus pbuh born without father(no sperm) that is hard to
be believed if you dont have the faith.

Perhaps the farthest Mosque wasn't in Jerusalem,well how could it be,there wasn't a Mosque in Jerusalem during Muhammeds lifetime.

 

[arthra]

It could "The Farthest Mosque" refer to a place of worship or site where God was worshipped...not necesssarily to a "Mosque" as such...rather a Masjid.

 

[England my lionheart]

It could "The Farthest Mosque" refer to a place of worship or site where God was worshipped...not necesssarily to a "Mosque" as such...rather a Masjid.

I've heard this before,the word used is Mosque not Masjid,one would expect the Author to use the right word.

 

[FearGod]

Thats true,more details for the word Masjid as any place to worship is found Here,
But most amazing that a building on the same place become the farthest mosque,
as if it is already confirmed by the quran as a real fact.

 

[arthra]

I've heard this before,the word used is Mosque not Masjid,one would expect the Author to use the right word.

He did... Mosque is more from French ... Masjid is the Arabic...


A mosque is a place of worship for followers of Islam. The word entered English from a French word which probably derived from Italian moschea, a variant of Italian moscheta, from either Armenian mzkiṭ or Greek μασγίδιον, from Arabic masjid, meaning "place of worship" or "prostration in prayer", from Arabic sajada, meaning "to bow down in prayer" or "worship", probably ultimately of Aramaic origin.[1]

thus the wiki..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque