Is Islamic faith reasonable.

[arthra]

I have never understood praying in the direction of Jerusalem or Mecca. Even if they are supposed to be sacred places, wouldn't that consider to be sorta idol worship?

It's a direction for prayer...It's not considered "idol worship" because there are no idols...The direction is called a Qiblah...Arabic: قبلة‎, "direction"... a focal point for prayer.

There is also a direction for prayer in Judaism called a "Mizrah". After the Temple was destroyed the Jews turned toward it in prayer:

"The custom is based on the prayer of Solomon (I Kings 8:33, 44, 48; II Chron. 6:34). Another passage supporting this rule is found in the Book of Daniel, which relates that in the upper chamber of the house, where Daniel prayed three times a day, the windows of which were opened toward Jerusalem (Dan. 6:10)."

- Wikipedia

 

[England my lionheart]

When you wrote "AFAIK" I thought maybe you were referring to a AFLAC duck commercial...

Never heard of AFLAC Duck,not sure why anyone would mention it in a thread such as this

I posted my view that it was a spiritual transport but would acknowledge most Muslims would probably disagree with that.. They believe it is both physical and spiritual...similar to our view that the resurrection of Jesus was spiritual as opposed to say physical resurrection held by most Christians.

Some even go down the dream route,which,IMO,is the only way this journey could happen,i agree that the same difficulty is shared by Christianity and ultimately Judaism.

Maybe you have derived some of your argument from an Answering Islam site which seeks to find contradictions in the Quran... if that's the case I feel sorry that you would allow that kind of site to influence you. But I think more of you and believe you have a sincere interest.


I dislike such sites,too much of "my religion is better than yours",i have an interest in Middle East history and although Al Aqsa is only the third holiest site for Islam it plays a huge part in the conflict of Palestine and Israel,i think the Ezzedeen Al-Qassam Brigades would agree.
The verse in the Quran does indeed use the term Al Masjid Al Aqsa

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran

Al Aqsa means the farthest...place of prostration or worship.. Now where would we find such a place? It was already known that the Temple of Jerusalem the Temple Mount was such a place... Yes defiled by the Romans around 70 CE but still a place where worship occurred.. A place hallowed by His Holiness Jesus Himself.

"The Mosque of Aqsa vibrateth through the breezes of its Lord, the All-Glorious, whilst Batha (Mecca) trembleth at the voice of God, the Exalted, the Most High."

~ Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 60

Theres a few problems with this,first,from what we know the journey described is impossible,second:

The people said: "O Muhammad, describe the Hallowed House for us. How is it built, what does it look like, how near is it to the mountain." There were some among them who had travelled there. He began to describe it for them: "Its structure is like this, its appearance like this, its proximity to the mountain is such-and-such," and he did not stop describing it to them until he began to have doubt about the description. He was seized with an anxiety he had not felt before, whereupon he was immediately brought to the mosque itself (in Jerusalem) and saw it in front of him. He was placed outside the gate of `Aqil or `Iqal. The people said: "How many gates does the mosque have?" He had not counted them before. He looked at the gates and began to count them one by one and to inform them. All the while Abu Bakr was saying: "You have spoken the truth. You have spoken the truth. I bear witness that you are the Messenger of Allah (sadaqta sadaqta ashhadu annaka rasulullah)."
The people said: "As for the description, then, by Allah, he is correct." They turned to Abu Bakr and said: "But do you believe what he said, that he went last night to the Hallowed House and came back before morning?" He replied: "Yes, and I do believe him regarding what is farther than that. I believe the news of heaven he brings, whether in the space of a morning or in that of an evening journey (na`am inni la usaddiquhu fima huwa ab`adu min dhalika usaddiqu bi khabari al-sama'i fi ghudwatin aw rawhatin)." Because of this Abu Bakr was named al-Siddiq: the Most Truthful, the One Who Never Lies.

So,here we are,what is Muhammed describing,it doesn't really tell us that much,in
fact more is made of the Caravan and a certain Camel he saw,i think Abu Bakr sums it up well,no matter how incredible Muhammeds stories were Abu Bakr and Muslims would believe them.

 

[F0uad]

So,here we are,what is Muhammed describing,it doesn't really tell us that much,in
fact more is made of the Caravan and a certain Camel he saw,i think Abu Bakr sums it up well,no matter how incredible Muhammeds stories were Abu Bakr and Muslims would believe them.

Yes because Mohammed(saws) was one of the most trustworthy person ever alive according to hes companions, family, close-related and even ENEMIES.

 

[England my lionheart]

Yes because Mohammed(saws) was one of the most trustworthy person ever alive according to hes companions, family, close-related and even ENEMIES.

So you take it on faith that it was true,and of course the word of Abu Bakr,now after Muhammed was questioned about the night journey and he described the "Hallowed House" the people still asked Abu Bakr:

." They turned to Abu Bakr and said: "But do you believe what he said, that he went last night to the Hallowed House and came back before morning?"

So although Muhammed described the farthest Mosque/Masjid and the Caravan they still sought confirmation from Abu Bakr who witnessed nothing.

" Because of this Abu Bakr was named al-Siddiq: the Most Truthful, the One Who Never Lies.

 

[F0uad]

So you take it on faith that it was true,and of course the word of Abu Bakr,now after Muhammed was questioned about the night journey and he described the "Hallowed House" the people still asked Abu Bakr:

." They turned to Abu Bakr and said: "But do you believe what he said, that he went last night to the Hallowed House and came back before morning?"

So although Muhammed described the farthest Mosque/Masjid and the Caravan they still sought confirmation from Abu Bakr who witnessed nothing.

" Because of this Abu Bakr was named al-Siddiq: the Most Truthful, the One Who Never Lies.

No because i belief in Mohammed(saws) being trustworthy like hes enemies, companions, family and close-related recorded.
So i am actually following Historical confirmation also these great companions Abu Bakir, Umar etc.. where also one of the most trustworthy people around back then.

`Umar said: "Abu Bakr’s faith outweighs the faith of the entire Umma." This is confirmed by the following hadith: The Prophet asked: "Did any of you see anything in his dream?" A man said to the Prophet: "O Messenger of Allah, I saw in my dream as if a balance came down from the heaven in which you were weighed against Abu Bakr and outweighed him, then Abu Bakr was weighed against `Umar and outweighed him, then `Umar was weighed against `Uthman and outweighed him, then the balance was raised up." This displeased the Prophet who said: "Successorship of prophethood (khilâfa nubuwwa)! Then Allah shall give kingship to whomever He will." `Umar also said: "The best of this Community after its Prophet is Abu Bakr." `Ali named him and `Umar the Shaykh al-Islam of the Community and said: "The best of this Community after its Prophet are Abu Bakr and `Umar," "The most courageous of people is Abu Bakr," and "The greatest in reward among people for the volumes of the Qur’an is Abu Bakr, for he was the first of those who gathered the Qur’an between two covers." He was also the first to name it mushaf.

Abu Bakr’s high rank is indicated, among other signs, by the fact that to deny his Companionship to the Prophet entails disbelief (kufr), unlike the denial of the Companionship of `Umar, `Uthman, and `Ali to the Prophet. This is due to the mention of this companionship in the verse: "The second of two when the two were in the cave, and he said unto his companion: Grieve not" (9:40) which refers, by Consensus, to the Prophet and Abu Bakr. Allah further praised him above the rest by saying: "Those who spent and fought before the victory are not upon a level (with the rest of you)." (57:10)

 

[England my lionheart]

No because i belief in Mohammed(saws) being trustworthy like hes enemies, companions, family and close-related recorded.
So i am actually following Historical confirmation also these great companions Abu Bakir, Umar etc.. where also one of the most trustworthy people around back then.

`Umar said: "Abu Bakr’s faith outweighs the faith of the entire Umma." This is confirmed by the following hadith: The Prophet asked: "Did any of you see anything in his dream?" A man said to the Prophet: "O Messenger of Allah, I saw in my dream as if a balance came down from the heaven in which you were weighed against Abu Bakr and outweighed him, then Abu Bakr was weighed against `Umar and outweighed him, then `Umar was weighed against `Uthman and outweighed him, then the balance was raised up." This displeased the Prophet who said: "Successorship of prophethood (khilâfa nubuwwa)! Then Allah shall give kingship to whomever He will." `Umar also said: "The best of this Community after its Prophet is Abu Bakr." `Ali named him and `Umar the Shaykh al-Islam of the Community and said: "The best of this Community after its Prophet are Abu Bakr and `Umar," "The most courageous of people is Abu Bakr," and "The greatest in reward among people for the volumes of the Qur’an is Abu Bakr, for he was the first of those who gathered the Qur’an between two covers." He was also the first to name it mushaf.

Abu Bakr’s high rank is indicated, among other signs, by the fact that to deny his Companionship to the Prophet entails disbelief (kufr), unlike the denial of the Companionship of `Umar, `Uthman, and `Ali to the Prophet. This is due to the mention of this companionship in the verse: "The second of two when the two were in the cave, and he said unto his companion: Grieve not" (9:40) which refers, by Consensus, to the Prophet and Abu Bakr. Allah further praised him above the rest by saying: "Those who spent and fought before the victory are not upon a level (with the rest of you)." (57:10)

What is the historical confirmation?,i would be interested to see it,by the way,i'm not calling Abu Bakr a liar because in the passage i quoted he doesn't lie,really he just said that he believes anything Muhammed tells him.

 

[F0uad]

What is the historical confirmation?,i would be interested to see it,by the way,i'm not calling Abu Bakr a liar because in the passage i quoted he doesn't lie,really he just said that he believes anything Muhammed tells him.

The Hadiths themselves are considered to be Historical ''Evidence'' even Western Scholars and Historians agree on the Authentic Hadiths that have been collected by other Historians. Like i said before even Mohammed's(saws) enemies called him Trustworthy and he was never accused of lying so off-course one of hes greatest companion beliefs him. Heck all the muslims believed him they were just asking Abu bakr, if they didn't belief him and if people do not belief him even now then there wouldn't be any ''Muslims'' what seems logical?

 

[England my lionheart]

The Hadiths themselves are considered to be Historical ''Evidence'' even Western Scholars and Historians agree on the Authentic Hadiths that have been collected by other Historians. Like i said before even Mohammed's(saws) enemies called him Trustworthy and he was never accused of lying so off-course one of hes greatest companion beliefs him. Heck all the muslims believed him they were just asking Abu bakr, if they didn't belief him and if people do not belief him even now then there wouldn't be any ''Muslims'' what seems logical?

Like i said before,the popular vote doesn't make it right,if that were true Christianity would be right and not Islam.

 

[F0uad]

Like i said before,the popular vote doesn't make it right,if that were true Christianity would be right and not Islam.

There is no vote or ''competion'' like i said both never lied according to historical evidence without being biased(and its forbidden in Islamic teaching), we have over 400,000 hadiths and your acting we do not know anything of Mohammed(saws) we even know how many grey hair he had on hes beard the people in that time where so accurate in recording things that even modern time is nothing compared to it.

I don't see how believing in Mohammed(saws) or Abu Bakr has anything to do with Christianity or a ''Popular contest?

 

[arthra]

England:

Saying something is "impossible" could be said about reports of Jesus miracles as well...What we have are reports from verbal traditions in any case. I tend personally to accept the spiritual ascent as the important part of the story... as with the ascension of Jesus.

The Hadiths are a record and there is some variance among them..so a historian looks at these with a dispassionate eye and comes to their own conclusions.

But being fair is important rather than being say just contentious don't you think England?

By the way England in your post no. 162 above it appears you are quoting my post..actually your comments in blue are what you've emphasized as your own responses but you don't make it clear..

 

[arthra]

I found a verse from the Qur'an Surah 17 translated by Pickthall that may relate to the issue:

89 And verily We have displayed for mankind in this Qur'án all kind of similitudes, but most of mankind refuse aught save disbelief.

90 And they say: We will not put faith in thee till thou cause a spring to gush forth from the earth for us;

91 Or thou have a garden of date-palms and grapes, and cause rivers to gush forth therein abundantly;

92 Or thou cause the heaven to fall upon us piecemeal, as thou hast pretended, or bring Allah and the angels as a warrant;

93 Or thou have a house of gold;

or thou ascend up into heaven, and even then we will put no faith in thine ascension till thou bring down for us a book that we can read.

Say (O Muhammad): My Lord be Glorified! Am I aught save a mortal messenger ?

 

[England my lionheart]

There is no vote or ''competion'' like i said both never lied according to historical evidence without being biased(and its forbidden in Islamic teaching), we have over 400,000 hadiths and your acting we do not know anything of Mohammed(saws) we even know how many grey hair he had on hes beard the people in that time where so accurate in recording things that even modern time is nothing compared to it.

Thats good for an oral tradition,just agree which are sahih with a reliable chain,i would also point out that i never claimed they lied,in Abu Bakr's case,he didn't say much at all.

I don't see how believing in Mohammed(saws) or Abu Bakr has anything to do with Christianity or a ''Popular contest?

You said:

The Hadiths themselves are considered to be Historical ''Evidence'' even Western Scholars and Historians agree on the Authentic Hadiths that have been collected by other Historians. Like i said before even Mohammed's(saws) enemies called him Trustworthy and he was never accused of lying so off-course one of hes greatest companion beliefs him. Heck all the muslims believed him they were just asking Abu bakr, if they didn't belief him and if people do not belief him even now then there wouldn't be any ''Muslims'' what seems logical?

Just because people believe something it doesn't make it true,no matter how many believe it.

 

[England my lionheart]

England:

Saying something is "impossible" could be said about reports of Jesus miracles as well...What we have are reports from verbal traditions in any case. I tend personally to accept the spiritual ascent as the important part of the story... as with the ascension of Jesus.

I agree,it could be said of Jesus too or Moses and even Abraham,thats faith though and fair enough.

Quote arthra
The Hadiths are a record and there is some variance among them..so a historian looks at these with a dispassionate eye and comes to their own conclusions.

Agreed,i have read many hadith and have some favourite ones,there is some sifting to find the ones that everyone agrees on but they are interesting.

Quote arthra
But being fair is important rather than being say just contentious don't you think England?

I think if something is professed to be true and it is then it should stand up to the most vigorous questioning.

Quote arthra
By the way England in your post no. 162 above it appears you are quoting my post..actually your comments in blue are what you've emphasized as your own responses but you don't make it clear..

Sorry,will sort it

 

[-Peacemaker-]

The biggest head scratcher for me regarding Islam is the ridiculous claim it makes that the Bible has been altered. This is perhaps the easiest of all Islamic claims to debunk, at least when it comes to the New Testament. We actually have ancient copies of the NT, enough of them to verify that no corruption took place. The fact that this claim is almost universally accepted in the Islamic world makes me wonder about the level of education of most Muslims.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Which verses in the NT are claimed to have been altered? Claimed by whom?

 

[Quiddity]

Me thinks people use the word reason to mean whatever they want it to mean.

Islamic faith is more certainly reasonable.

 

[PolyHedral]

Me thinks people use the word reason to mean whatever they want it to mean.

Islamic faith is more certainly reasonable.

Reason is a very well-defined thing. The red-flag phrase is suggesting that anyone should be reasonable.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Which verses in the NT are claimed to have been altered? Claimed by whom?

That's a good question. I can't get a clear answer from Muslims when I ask it of them. They don't even seem to know for sure. Certainly the Koran directly contradicts the Bible in a few instances, such as in the story of Jesus. The Gospels obviously claim that JC died on a cross and resurrected while the Koran says he escaped such a death. From what I can see, apart from the few explicitly stated contradictions between the Bible and Koran, the Muslim can only use his own intuition to discern "corruptions".

 

[FearGod]

The biggest head scratcher for me regarding Islam is the ridiculous claim it makes that the Bible has been altered. This is perhaps the easiest of all Islamic claims to debunk, at least when it comes to the New Testament. We actually have ancient copies of the NT, enough of them to verify that no corruption took place. The fact that this claim is almost universally accepted in the Islamic world makes me wonder about the level of education of most Muslims.

Lol,i am a muslim and i do read what in the bible (old and new testaments),but only things
which we dont agree upon is the trinity,for us we should only worship one god,God of Adam and Abraham
peace be upon them and not 3 parts in one god,or worshipping a man instead of god.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That's a good question.

The better question is whether or not you can back your claims:

We actually have ancient copies of the NT, enough of them to verify that no corruption took place. The fact that this claim is almost universally accepted in the Islamic world makes me wonder about the level of education of most Muslims.​

Perhaps it is your level of education that should be questioned.