cledussnow
New Member
Why not just say "we don't think this line of debate is politically correct".
I could at least respect that.
Or keep dodging the issue...
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Is Islamic faith reasonable.
- Thread starter 1robin
- Start date
Why not just say "we don't think this line of debate is politically correct".
I could at least respect that.
Or keep dodging the issue...
illykitty
RF's pet cat
I don't see how Islam is any worse a faith than any others. I researched a lot of faiths and Islam is one I considered the most. Has good ethics, great message within the Qu'ran and Muhammad, unlike most people think, was an amazing man who had love and compassion not only for his fellow men but he loved and cherished women, children and animals too. He only fought when attacked/needed and was ready to protect anyone. Even Christians and Jews trusted him.
I really think people who are very against Islam misunderstand it. It isn't as simple as reading the Qu'ran and formulate your interpretations of it. You need to read about the context behind each verse and read a detailed explanation of them from the original Arabic version. Also, you can't just grab any translations. Some of them aren't so good, they add things or don't use proper words.
Anyway, a lot more complicated than most think. There's a lot of study needed to understand it.
I really think people who are very against Islam misunderstand it. It isn't as simple as reading the Qu'ran and formulate your interpretations of it. You need to read about the context behind each verse and read a detailed explanation of them from the original Arabic version. Also, you can't just grab any translations. Some of them aren't so good, they add things or don't use proper words.
Anyway, a lot more complicated than most think. There's a lot of study needed to understand it.
Because that would not reflect my thinking on the matter.
I am disinterested in your respect.
I will engage any issue you wish - including transparent efforts to bait a faith community with inherently inane questions. Now run along ... :slap:
1robin
Christian/Baptist
As usual you would dissagree with many well respected scholars who debate these issues on an international scale on a regular basis. I have said I have no desire to discuss this issue with you, you seem too combative and hostile for a civil disussion, so I will not answer your other points.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Watch what Lesley Hazleton (a non muslim woman) said about the quran after reading it verse by verse.
[youtube]3Y2Or0LlO6g[/youtube]
Lesley Hazleton: A "tourist" reads the Koran - YouTube
[youtube]3Y2Or0LlO6g[/youtube]
Lesley Hazleton: A "tourist" reads the Koran - YouTube
You don't like being challenged the you challenge others do you. It's a telling quality, as is you persistent evasion. You might wish to stop while your behind. :yes:
cledussnow
New Member
She self identified herself as an Agnostic Jew.
Defined how exactly? Not sure if there is a God, but if there is one, I am one of His chosen ones.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
You are starting to display a level of antagonism that appears compulsive. I assured everyone I would not argue these points in this thread so as not to give the impression of an attack and have for the most part kept that promise. It was done because some people undersandably had concluded I was attacking Islam and I think you were the main one. So if I don't respond it is because I am avoiding a challenge, if I do I am attacking Islam by your warped standards.
No, if you do you are providing information by which we can better understand your criteria for reasonableness. Did you notice that you posted your presumably non-antagonistic questions in a debate forum? Do you insist that no one has the right to require that you clarify your terms if not your intent?
So, let's start again ...
You ask about the reasonableness of a particular faith. Or, to be more correct, you appear in a debate forum and challenge Muslim's to defend their faith as reasonable. You offer no definitions. You show no willingness to take on the same question with respect to your faith. And yet you insist on posturing as a simple soul asking a simple question - the same question you find threatening. Do you really thing such a stance is credible?
It must have been an interesting journey considering the destination didn't exist until after death.
Why not ask her instead of mocking both her and Judaism?
How do you define your faith?
1robin
Christian/Baptist
If you had asked a reasonable question like this I would have been far more inclined to address it. I am on my way out the door but will revisit your issues tomorrow. For clarity are you saying that my questions or points are so inaccurate as to not constitute reasonable points for discussion? and you want information that will justify my request for the defense or explanations which are used by Muslims?No, if you do you are providing information by which we can better understand your criteria for reasonableness. Did you notice that you posted your presumably non-antagonistic questions in a debate forum? Do you insist that no one has the right to require that you clarify your terms if not your intent?
So, let's start again ...
You ask about the reasonableness of a particular faith. Or, to be more correct, you appear in a debate forum and challenge Muslim's to defend their faith as reasonable. You offer no definitions. You show no willingness to take on the same question with respect to your faith. And yet you insist on posturing as a simple soul asking a simple question - the same question you find threatening. Do you really thing such a stance is credible?
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Let me just quickly answer you yes ALL the wars were Justified at-least in my opinion why don't you ask specific questions for example what was the reason for ''war a'' or ''war b'' instead of addressing it like that Mohammed(saws) was a violent man.
Why don't you focus on one subject instead of making a story if ''A'' happened then he couldn't be a ''B'' atleast that is what i get from your first message.
Please don't leave and ask if you want i like questions but be sincere with them..
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arthra
Baha'i
Being a Gnostic I thought you would understand this...
The NIght Journey is in my view a spiritual ascension, not a material one..
Surah 17
Al Isra' (The Night Journey) -or- Bani Isra'il (TheChildren of Israel)
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
1. Glory to (Allah) Who did take His Servant for Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did Bless -- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 17)
The story focuses on how Muhammad's heart was purified by an archangel (Gabriel) who filled him with knowledge and faith in preparation to enter the seven levels of heaven. After prayer (Salah, where the children can pray with the adults if they wish) food and treats are served.[3][12][13] Esoteric interpretations of Islam emphasise the spiritual significance of Mi'raj, seeing it as a symbol of the soul's journey and the potential of humans to rise above the comforts of material life through prayer, piety and discipline.[5]
Isra and Mi'raj - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It was when He returned to Mecca that He had the vision of the Night Journey (Mi'raj, i.e., Ascent), when He rose in spirit through the seven heavens to the throne of God. Surih 17 of the Qur'án is called the Night Journey; in the Íqán Bahá'u'lláh refers to Muhammad as the ''Lord of the Mi'raj" and says that the mirror of the heart must be purified to understand its mystery (187)
(Marzieh Gail, Six Lessons on Islam, p. 8)
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
Alright FOuad you sound like a reasonable person. I will discuss this with you in more detail. It is a heavy burden of proof to support 68 battles (according to what I have found) were fought only on the defensive. Is this the one point I made that you want to discuss. It will have to be tomorrow though, sorry.
peace,
Heres the story of the night journey The night journey and the ascension of prophet Muhammad
arthra
Baha'i
Let me share a rough chronology of events that most agree transpired and you can judge for yourself:
CHRONOLOGY OF ISLAM
c570 AD Birth of Muhammad. The Qur'án gives the year of the "Elephant", (105:1-5) as His birthdate.. This year refers to a military engagement in which elephants were employed in battle.
595 AD Muhammad married Khadijah Bint Khuwaylid who bore Him four sons (all of whom died in infancy), and four daughters, none of whom lived to age 30.
610 AD Muhammad receives a revelation on Mr. Hira. The Qur'án calls it the "Night of Qadr", or "night of power". (97:1-5). His wife Khadijah becomes the first to believe in Him.
610-613 AD Muhammad remains publicly silent as to the nature of His Mission.
614 AD Muhammad begins to teach His new Faith and proclaims Himself to be the Prophet of God.
615 AD Some of Muhammad's followers emigrate to Abysinnia (today called Ethiopia).
616-618 AD Boycott imposed on Muhammad and His followers by Meccans. 'Umar is converted to Islam.
619 AD Khadijah dies. Abu Talib, Muhammad's uncle and protector, also dies.
619 AD Muhammad goes south to the city of Taif to teach His Faith but is stoned and driven from the town.
620 AD Muhammad experiences the "Night Journey" ('Miraj'), a dream or vision in which He is transported to the Haram--the platform on which the Dome of the Rock stands today--in Jerusalem and from there to into heaven. Six visitors from Yathrib (today called Medina) accept Muhammad.
621 AD Muhammad sends a believer to Yathrib (Medina) to teach His new converts.
622 AD July 15th is given as the traditional date on which Muhammad 'emigrates' ('hegira') to Yathrib (Medina). 622 begins the Muslim lunar calendar as 1 A.H. (A.H.="After the Hegira").
623 AD Battle of Badr. Read (3:123). Muhammad and His followers rout a numerically superior Meccan army.
625 AD Battle of Uhud takes place on the western outskirts of Medina.. Muhammad and His followers lose to the Meccans.
626 AD January - Husayn born to 'Ali and Fatimah, Muhammad's son-in-law and daughter. Husayn is to become the Third Imam of Shi'ih Islam. M&TCOI, p.92.
627 AD "Battle of the Trench". Siege of Yathrib (Medina) by Meccans foiled by the military tactic of digging a trench around most of the city.
628-9 AD Muhammad enters in to a ten year truce with the Meccans called the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah.
630 AD Muhammad marches on Mecca with 10,000 men. Battle of Hunayn fought 31 January.
632 AD Death of the Prophet's son Ibrahim. Muhammad's last pilgrimage to Mecca. June 8th, traditional date on which Muhammad dies in 'A'isha's (3rd wife) arms.
- From a brief guide by Duane Troxel...
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F0uad
Well-Known Member
Actually he fought 32 and the other ones he ordered, i never said they were all ''Defensive'' i said they were all justified. Till then.
For clarity, read the words I wrote.
gnostic
The Lost One
eselam said:
I know what the Qur'an and the hadiths say about the Night Journey, but how can you tell if such events ever took place. I know how some Muslims interpret this event (Night Journey).
It is not just the journey to Jerusalem and back to Mecca. It is travelling on mythological divine horse in a single night. It is also about his ascent to the heavens. It is more like one of the tales from Arabian Nights, because the Night Journey sounds more like fairytale or fable.
But the problem is, how can we took place. It required more about faith than evidences or reality.
You can quote what it say in the Qur'an or the Hadiths or whatever Islamic traditions or interpretations you like, you simply can't supply the evidences to being a real journey. The whole thing defy reality, the laws of nature (or physics); it's supernatural.
I would probably accept such miracles when I was in my teens or even early 20's. But since then, I've seen more in life, and I had not seen any miracles or supernatural event. I haven't seen any spirit, whether they be angelic or demonic, ghosts or ghouls, and I certainly haven't seen any smokeless fiery beings (jinns).
To me, faith is more like wishful thinking than reality.
Do you think I am being unreasonable just because I don't believe in miracles or revelations? That I need more than simple hearsay from supposed (all Abrahamic, not just Islamic) prophets or alleged revelations from (all Abrahamic) scriptures?
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