Is Israel commiting war crimes? Urban warfare expert weighs in

[Orbit]

Israel's position appears to be "no cease fire without the immediate release of the hostages." [*] Hamas refuses, and their refusal raises not the slightest whimper from you and too many others.

So tell me, how is it that you, and to a qualitatively greater extent Hamas, do not share culpability?

[*] a position I find to be repulsive

And then there's this:

Netanyahu rejected ceasefire-for-hostages deal in Gaza, sources say

Israeli PM said to have turned down proposal in early talks and continues to take tough line

www.theguardian.com

 

[Revoltingest]

Israel's position appears to be "no cease fire without the immediate release of the hostages." [*] Hamas refuses, and their refusal raises not the slightest whimper from you and too many others.

You have sympathy for 200 or so hostages still alive.
But are quite silent about 10,000+ Palestinians dead.
Is this God's Chosen People's morality?
They worship a pretty sick & evil god.

So tell me, how is it that you, and to a qualitatively greater extent Hamas, do not share culpability?

Hamas causes far less death & destruction than Israel does.

[*] a position I find to be repulsive

Repulsive is your tacit defense of Israel's oppression & war crimes.
Israel kills an order of magnitude more Muslims than Israel lost on Oct 7.
Israel favors destruction over accuracy.

 

[Jimmy]

I address treating Jewish killers with
more charity than Muslim killers.

Well it started out with 200 Palestinian men killed. In retaliation over 1000 women and children were killed. So yes Up to that point there was more charity for Israel. but now what Israel has done there’s more charity for Palestine. They did give warning but personally I think they shouldn’t have bombed as much. But after having 500 children slain on oct 7th that’s enough to make anyone coo coo. Not sayin it’s right just sayin.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well it started out with 200 Palestinian men killed. In retaliation over 1000 women and children were killed. So yes Up to that point there was more charity for Israel. but now what Israel has done there’s more charity for Palestine. They did give warning but personally I think they shouldn’t have bombed as much. But after having 500 children slain on oct 7th that’s enough to make anyone coo coo. Not sayin it’s right just sayin.

So Israel exacts revenge by killing 10x as many Muslim children.
And still, this doesn't achieve peace.

 

[Jimmy]

I wonder if rape is OK if the victim is first warned?

Well war is goofy so your bound to have goofy rules. Again I’m not defending Israel. I’m just trying to make a little sense out the senseless. If there’s any to be had

 

[Jimmy]

So Israel exacts revenge by killing 10x as many Muslim children.
And still, this doesn't achieve peace.

I agree. It’s hideous. But the only sense I can make out of it is they went Coo coo after having 500 of their children slain.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree. It’s hideous. But the only sense I can make out of it is they went Coo coo after having 500 of their children slain.

Going crazy is a poor excuse for people who have the
luxury of going home that evening, considering things,
& then coldly deciding the next day to push buttons
that will kill thousands of Muslims indiscriminately.
They should be prosecuted for war crimes.

 

[Jimmy]

So Israel exacts revenge by killing 10x as many Muslim children.
And still, this doesn't achieve peace.

I wonder if 10x would’ve still been achieved if Israel sat back and did nothing? I’m talking about vigilante justice in Gaza perhaps or somewhere else. Something like that would be highly possible. Idk

 

[Harel13]

<sarcasm> Thank you for providing evidence of your statements instead of making me have to scour the internet for news articles regarding said claims. </sarcasm>

If they aren't targets then why are Israeli snipers shooting patients?

That does not prove they were the intended targets. That's what collateral damage would be. Both the IDF and detractors would have to prove either side - the IDF would have to prove that the intended targets were terrorists and detractors would have to prove that the intended targets were civilians. You're welcome to provide evidence for your position.

And they are bombing the routes south even as they give those instructions.

I don't know what you're referring to. Do you have evidence that this purported bombing was caused by the IDF and not Hamas, and that it took place during one of the evacuation windows?

The doctors can't evacuate because they are taking care of babies with manual ventilators, surgery patients, and others who also can't evacuate.

Clearly, Hamas should assist with such evacuation.

They don't even have ambulances to try evacuation because Israel blew those up, too.

The IDF destroyed ambulances used by Hamas.

Also, it seems awfully convenient to decide that whomever gets killed in Gaza is "really Hamas". That's over 4,000 "Hamas" children now. Or were they terrorists, too?

I don't believe I've ever stated anything of the sort, so don't put words into my mouth. I don't know how many children were killed so far, because I don't trust Hamas's numbers, but probably hundreds and perhaps even thousands. That does not mean they were the intended targets, nor does that mean that their deaths, unfortunate as they may be, were war crimes of Israel. If anything, the fact that Hamas stations their men among civilians which in turn causes civilian deaths is a war crime.

 

[Revoltingest]

I wonder if 10x would’ve still been achieved if Israel sat back and did nothing?

Is that worth wondering about?
I see no one proposing that scenario.
Self defense is appropriate.
War crimes are not.

I’m talking about vigilante justice in Gaza perhaps or somewhere else. Something like that would be highly possible. Idk

It's not vigilante justice when done
color of authority by a government.

 

[Jimmy]

Going crazy is a poor excuse for people who have the
luxury of going home that evening, considering things,
& then coldly deciding the next day to push buttons
that will kill thousands of Muslims indiscriminately.
They should be prosecuted for war crimes.

It’s a thing I wish I never witnessed

 

[Harel13]

And then there's this--are they all Hamas, too? Is every Palestinian Hamas? Because "kill them all" seems to be the goal.

Palestinians flee as Israel raids Jenin camp in the occupied West Bank

Residents were given just two hours to flee the assault which has killed 14 Palestinians.

www.aljazeera.com

Way to stay on topic. First, minimal research would show you that there are Hamas agents also in Judea and Samaria. Second, there are other terrorist groups both in Gaza and in J&S. Third, collateral damage exists in practically every bloody conflict, especially in urban areas. Once again, it'll be up to the IDF to provide evidence that civilians weren't the intended targets and for detractors to prove otherwise. Good luck.

 

[Jimmy]

Is that worth wondering about?
I see no one proposing that scenario.
Self defense is appropriate.
War crimes are not.

It's not vigilante justice when done
color of authority by a government.

I’m just sayin. Obviously not when it’s done by a govt. I guess what I’m trying to say is that Israel is operating with a vigilante mentality.

 

[Jimmy]

Going crazy is a poor excuse for people who have the
luxury of going home that evening, considering things,
& then coldly deciding the next day to push buttons
that will kill thousands of Muslims indiscriminately.
They should be prosecuted for war crimes.

See this is why I don’t believe in karma. Unfortunately When you try to exact revenge sometimes it doesn’t work out very evenly.

 

[Jimmy]

Is that worth wondering about?
I see no one proposing that scenario.
Self defense is appropriate.
War crimes are not.

It's not vigilante justice when done
color of authority by a government.

Israel’s not only operating with a vigilante mentality but Dare I say they may be doing this to ensure that hamas never attacks again. I disagree of course. Just trying to make a little sense out of the senseless

 

[Orbit]

<sarcasm> Thank you for providing evidence of your statements instead of making me have to scour the internet for news articles regarding said claims. </sarcasm>

That does not prove they were the intended targets. That's what collateral damage would be. Both the IDF and detractors would have to prove either side - the IDF would have to prove that the intended targets were terrorists and detractors would have to prove that the intended targets were civilians. You're welcome to provide evidence for your position.

I don't know what you're referring to. Do you have evidence that this purported bombing was caused by the IDF and not Hamas, and that it took place during one of the evacuation windows?

Clearly, Hamas should assist with such evacuation.

The IDF destroyed ambulances used by Hamas.

I don't believe I've ever stated anything of the sort, so don't put words into my mouth. I don't know how many children were killed so far, because I don't trust Hamas's numbers, but probably hundreds and perhaps even thousands. That does not mean they were the intended targets, nor does that mean that their deaths, unfortunate as they may be, were war crimes of Israel. If anything, the fact that Hamas stations their men among civilians which in turn causes civilian deaths is a war crime.

According to you, and Israel, everyone in Palestine is Hamas, so everyone seems to be fair game: doctors, journalists, ambulance drivers, humanitarian workers, and children are either "Hamas" or even more inexplicably, acceptable collateral murders.

 

[Alien826]

I don't believe I've ever stated anything of the sort, so don't put words into my mouth. I don't know how many children were killed so far, because I don't trust Hamas's numbers, but probably hundreds and perhaps even thousands. That does not mean they were the intended targets, nor does that mean that their deaths, unfortunate as they may be, were war crimes of Israel. If anything, the fact that Hamas stations their men among civilians which in turn causes civilian deaths is a war crime.

There's a time to be better then your opponents. If a bank robber has been cornered by the police and is holding up a child as a shield, is it right to shoot through the child to get the robber? There's an obvious answer to that I hope. What should the police do? Is there a shot available by a skilled marksman to get the robber and not the child? (That would be some kind of special forces action in Gaza). How about simply standing back and trying to negotiate? (For the Israelis, withdraw and concentrate on containment and defense while other measures are considered). No matter what, don't kill the child!

 

[Harel13]

According to you, and Israel, everyone in Palestine is Hamas, so everyone seems to be fair game: doctors, journalists, ambulance drivers, humanitarian workers, and children are either "Hamas" or even more inexplicably, acceptable collateral murders.

That is completely false. Since you refuse to provide evidence, actually look over the Geneva Conventions, continue to blatantly misrepresent my positions, and utterly ignore everything Israel has ever done to minimize civilian casualties (particular as opposed to its enemies), I see no point in continuing discussing any of these issues with you. Tag me if you ever want to have a serious discussion.

 

[Harel13]

There's a time to be better then your opponents. If a bank robber has been cornered by the police and is holding up a child as a shield, is it right to shoot through the child to get the robber? There's an obvious answer to that I hope. What should the police do? Is there a shot available by a skilled marksman to get the robber and not the child? (That would be some kind of special forces action in Gaza). How about simply standing back and trying to negotiate? (For the Israelis, withdraw and concentrate on containment and defense while other measures are considered). No matter what, don't kill the child!

In general, I agree with the first statement, but I disagree with the analogy and the conclusion. Israel isn't facing a robber, but a mass murderer. The moral dilemma is such: The mass murderer will surely continue murdering people if not shot now. There is enough evidence of this. Your analogy also assumes that there's a skilled marksman that can shoot him without injuring or killing the child. What if such a shot is impossible? Or what if many more will be killed while that marksman is flown in? Is one child's life worth more than that dozens of other children and/or adults? So no, I don't accept the conclusion that "no matter what, don't kill the child". I also don't think this makes me morally repugnant, as some have attempted to suggest to me in the years since I've joined this forum.

 

[Orbit]

That is completely false. Since you refuse to provide evidence, actually look over the Geneva Conventions, continue to blatantly misrepresent my positions, and utterly ignore everything Israel has ever done to minimize civilian casualties (particular as opposed to its enemies), I see no point in continuing discussing any of these issues with you. Tag me if you ever want to have a serious discussion.

I have twice posted links to U.N. sites that provide the text of, and links to, the Geneva Convention definition of war crimes. Your position seems to be, from what you have posted, that there is no problem with how Israel treats Palestinians, and no problem with the current slaughter of Palestinian civilians and children. I can't see that I have misrepresented your position.