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Is Israel commiting war crimes? Urban warfare expert weighs in

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
And then there's this:

Therefore? Did you read the article? Here, let me help ...

Benjamin Netanyahu rejected a deal for a five-day ceasefire with Palestinian militant groups in Gaza in return for the release of some of the hostages held in the territory early in the war, according to sources familiar with the negotiations.​

You're beginning to disgust me.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
Therefore? Did you read the article? Here, let me help ...

Benjamin Netanyahu rejected a deal for a five-day ceasefire with Palestinian militant groups in Gaza in return for the release of some of the hostages held in the territory early in the war, according to sources familiar with the negotiations.​

You're beginning to disgust me.

The feeling is mutual. You're nit-picking to make your point; both sides in this are being idiots in my view. Hamas for war crimes and Israel for war crimes. Hamas for not stopping and Netanyahu for not stopping. I wonder how many of Israel's "targeted for destruction, not accuracy" bombs have killed hostages?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I have twice posted links to U.N. sites that provide the text of, and links to, the Geneva Convention definition of war crimes. Your position seems to be, from what you have posted, that there is no problem with how Israel treats Palestinians, and no problem with the current slaughter of Palestinian civilians and children. I can't see that I have misrepresented your position.
I can. No one here said that all Arabs are Hamas and what was presented of the convention showed that the conditions governing war crimes do not exist because Israel DOES protect Arabs.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
I can. No one here said that all Arabs are Hamas and what was presented of the convention showed that the conditions governing war crimes do not exist because Israel DOES protect Arabs.
Your response makes absolutely no sense.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
I can. No one here said that all Arabs are Hamas and what was presented of the convention showed that the conditions governing war crimes do not exist because Israel DOES protect Arabs.

"Israel does protect Arabs" - Now there is a demonstrably false claim if there ever was one :)

Leveling buildings full of civilians .. killing thousands of innocent babies and children and babies .. then blowing up the ambulances coming to the scene .. is not exactly what one would call "protection" friend .. quite the reverse I'm afraid.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
The significant difference I see is that children
are far far far less likely to be legitimate targets.

Legitimate targets for who ? It is no secret that prior to this war terrorist attacks against children, babies, fetuses and innocents in general, were done far more frequently by the Israeli side over 7 decades of this blood fued. The ratio of dead children 10-1 .. the ratio of terrorist atrocity and war crimes 10-1. In this recent conflict the ratio is even worse .. far higher numbers of dead children than previous.

So what is the point of pointing out that Israel has murderd way more children than the Palestinians - committed far more war crimes .. crimes against humanity .. the oppressor and occupier in this battle.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
"Israel does protect Arabs" - Now there is a demonstrably false claim if there ever was one :)

Leveling buildings full of civilians .. killing thousands of innocent babies and children and babies .. then blowing up the ambulances coming to the scene .. is not exactly what one would call "protection" friend .. quite the reverse I'm afraid.
Creating corridors that protect from Hamas' guns, calling ahead to persuade people to leave, dropping leaflets and using ground troops Instead of just firing from planes to level everything indiscriminately. Meanwhile Hamas officials explicitly say that protecting civilians isn't their job. You really need to watch a more complete coverage.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Legitimate targets for who ?
Either side in a war.
It is no secret that prior to this war terrorist attacks against children, babies, fetuses and innocents in general, were done far more frequently by the Israeli side over 7 decades of this blood fued. The ratio of dead children 10-1 .. the ratio of terrorist atrocity and war crimes 10-1. In this recent conflict the ratio is even worse .. far higher numbers of dead children than previous.
OK.
So what is the point of pointing out that Israel has murderd way more children than the Palestinians....
Because Israel & apologists see only the 1,400
killed & couple hundred kidnapped by Hamas.
They've far far less concern for the 11,000 Muslims
they killed & are still killing & maiming in Gaza.
They must have this info repeatedly presented
to them until they face their own inhumanity.
That is THE POINT.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
Either side in a war.

OK.

Because Israel & apologists see only the 1,400
killed & couple hundred kidnapped by Hamas.
They've far far less concern for the 11,000 Muslims
they killed & are still killing & maiming in Gaza.
They must have this info repeatedly presented
to them until they face their own inhumanity.
That is THE POINT.

Ahh .. I see THE POINT :) It is very sad these apologists but also scary how effective the Propaganda has become at turning the masses into brainwashed sheep.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Ahh .. I see THE POINT :) It is very sad these apologists but also scary how effective the Propaganda has become at turning the masses into brainwashed sheep.
Israel's propaganda is becoming quite tarnished.
Even USA leadership is beginning to chafe at
the heavy Judeo-Christian yoke.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
An interesting op-ed at CNN by John Spencer, an expert of Urban Warfare studies.

Excerpt:

"On the other hand, nothing I have seen shows that the Israel Defense Forces are not following the laws of wars in Gaza, particularly when the charges that the IDF is committing war crimes so often come too quickly for there to have been an examination of the factors that determine whether an attack, and the resulting civilian casualties, are lawful. The factors that need to be assessed are the major dimensions of the most commonly agreed to international humanitarian law principles: military necessity, proportionality, distinction, humanity and honor."​
Worth reading the whole thing.
I think the war crime is mostly here:

The use of human shields is forbidden by Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions. It is also a specific intent war crime as codified in the Rome Statute, which was adopted in 1998.[2][3]


Deaths of innocent Palestinians rest almost solely on Hamas.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I think the war crime is mostly here:

The use of human shields is forbidden by Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions. It is also a specific intent war crime as codified in the Rome Statute, which was adopted in 1998.[2][3]


Deaths of innocent Palestinians rest almost solely on Hamas.
Thought bubbles I read.....
Hamas guy #1: "Let's use human shields."
Hamas guy #2: "They won't protect us, but IDF will massacre them to get us."
Hamas guy #1: "Exactly!"
IDF guy #1: "They're using human shields."
IDF guy #2: "Praise God! It's a toofer."
IDF guy #1: "Now we have license to kill any innocent Muslims."
IDF guy #2: "Death to the unbelievers & their spawn!"
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Thought bubbles I read.....
Hamas guy #1: "Let's use human shields."
Hamas guy #2: "They won't protect us, but IDF will massacre them to get us."
Hamas guy #1: "Exactly!"
IDF guy #1: "They're using human shields."
IDF guy #2: "Praise God! It's a toofer."
IDF guy #1: "Now we have license to kill any innocent Muslims."
IDF guy #2: "Death to the unbelievers & their spawn!"
Yes... we are very creative in our story making.

Hamas guy #1 "Let's use human shields"
Hamas guy #2 "NO! WE MUST NOT PUT IN JEOPARDY OUR FELLOW CITIZENS!"
Hamas guy #1 "You are right! Let' move the civilians out because we are well hidden here".

Hmmm... creative, but I don't think THAT will ever happen!

Hamas guy #1: "Let's use human shields even though it is a war crime!"
Hamas guy #2: "YES! That way, when they counter attack, we can use it as a PR opportunity on how horrible Israel is and then say it is THEM who are committing war crimes!"
Hams guy #!: "But wait! What are we going to do if they try to leave?"
Hamas guy #2 as he was thinking: "Shoot them... they will die one way or the other and we can still blame Israel and say it was them!"


More realistic
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Thought bubbles I read.....
Hamas guy #1: "Let's use human shields."
Hamas guy #2: "They won't protect us, but IDF will massacre them to get us."
Hamas guy #1: "Exactly!"
IDF guy #1: "They're using human shields."
IDF guy #2: "Praise God! It's a toofer."
IDF guy #1: "Now we have license to kill any innocent Muslims."
IDF guy #2: "Death to the unbelievers & their spawn!"

One aspect I find especially untenable in many of the "human shield" arguments that attempt to absolve the IDF of all guilt for killing noncombatants is that there usually seems to be an implication of no agency on Israel's part, as if Israel were an automaton being forced to widely and aggressively bomb residential areas without a choice in the matter and without any ability to adopt a more careful and responsible approach.

I think applying the same argument to other scenarios could help to highlight just how dangerous and ethically alarming it is. Let's say a cartel leader, or even a few, hides inside a residential building where 20 or 30 families live. The police claim that the cartel are using the residents as "human shields" and bomb the entire building, killing most or all of its residents in order to get the cartel members.

This is not how most reasonable people expect law enforcement to work, and I have almost zero doubt that Israel wouldn't take its current approach if civilians in Gaza were Israeli rather than Palestinian. The October 7 massacre, which was the deadliest pogrom since World War II, killed 1,400 people. This is a fraction of the number of Palestinian civilians killed by Israel in the last five years, let alone in several decades. I see no reason to react differently to such massacres whether the targets are Israelis or Palestinians.

There seems to be such widespread desensitization or apathy toward Palestinian deaths that we are now at the point of arguing why it is unacceptable and inhumane to greenlight heavy, widespread bombardment of densely populated areas and brush aside civilian deaths under the "human shield" banner. Replace Palestinian civilians with civilians from a Western country and imagine how most people would react in that scenario. I think the reactions of large segments of Western media to the Ukraine war versus the bombardment of Gaza should tell you much of what you need to know about how much they value the lives of each population.

Thankfully, an increasing number of people around the world are now opposing Israel's policies and becoming aware of how much abuse it has inflicted on Palestinian civilians, so hopefully the resultant pressure can lead to positive change.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This shows the Judeo-Christian mindset of deflection.
Justify Israel's massacre of Palestinians by showing
Hamas to be evil. They're all Muslims...they're all in
the same area...they're all the same, ie, not Jewish.
This justifies oppression & war crimes.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
This shows the Judeo-Christian mindset of deflection.
Justify Israel's massacre of Palestinians by showing
Hamas to be evil. This justifies oppression & war crimes.
This shows atheistic/humanistic thinking. White-wash the war-crimes at human atrocities of Hamas. Peace for Palestinians will never happen the Hamas around.

Let's get a multi-national armed forces involved and save the Palestinians
 
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