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Is it better to be a believer or an athiest?

Evolved1

Member
You missed my point completely. You need sufficient reason to believe. Without it, you can't just choose to.

What is a "sufficient reason" though? Isn't it subjective? Don't we choose what is "sufficient" and what isn't?

I certainly didn't choose to believe in God, I was convinced. It's not the same thing.

For some people, the words in the Bible are "sufficient reason" to believe in it. I don't know you well enough to know what convinced you to believe in God, but I'd be willing to bet that not everyone would be convinced by the same thing you were. You chose to be convinced by whatever convinced you.

Choosing a belief is not the same as acquiring knowledge. I don't choose to believe that my computer monitor is in front of me. I can punch it and know that it is there.

Whether it's true or false, we can choose to believe anything that our imaginations can conjure. But when it comes to knowing something, we are restricted to reality.

Evolved1
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
What is a "sufficient reason" though? Isn't it subjective? Don't we choose what is "sufficient" and what isn't?
Subjective yes, but I don't think we choose it.

I don't know you well enough to know what convinced you to believe in God,
An intense and transformative theophany.

but I'd be willing to bet that not everyone would be convinced by the same thing you were.
Well, it's just my opinion, of course, but I'd be willing to bet that everyone, down the the staunchest atheist would be convinced. Not by my account of it, of course, but if they had the same experience.

You chose to be convinced by whatever convinced you.
No more than I choose to believe a brick wall exists after my head slams into it.

Choosing a belief is not the same as acquiring knowledge. I don't choose to believe that my computer monitor is in front of me. I can punch it and know that it is there.
Which is exactly my reasoning wrt God.

We can choose to believe anything that our imaginations can conjure. But when it comes to knowing something, we are restricted to reality.
Obviously I disagree. I honestly don't understand your reasoning here. :sorry1: I can dream up any number of things, but I can't make myself believe them.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
The urge to know is less a drive to be in contact with reality than to find a satisfactory way of living in the human community. To “know” means to live in a space of shared perceptions, values and meanings. The “open mind” is not owing to a lack of bias, but the sifting of information that takes place as a community debates the merits of “respectable” biases.
That's an interesting idea. Does scientific investigation fall into the same category, do you think?
 

Evolved1

Member
Subjective yes, but I don't think we choose it.

If we don't choose, then who does?

An intense and transformative theophany.

That sounds cool.

Well, it's just my opinion, of course, but I'd be willing to bet that everyone, down the the staunchest atheist would be convinced. Not by my account of it, of course, but if they had the same experience.

I guess it would have to happen to me for me to know if it was convincing... Why do you think it happened?

Which is exactly my reasoning wrt God.

You can punch God? :p

Obviously I disagree. I honestly don't understand your reasoning here. :sorry1: I can dream up any number of things, but I can't make myself believe them

My point is, if someone wants to believe in the existence of vampires, ghosts, goblins, gods or whatever, they can (and do). I think everyone has the power to believe in things for which there is no evidence (iow, have faith). The question then becomes, do we have good reason for that belief/faith?

Some people disregard the need for good reason. I'm not one of those people. I like to have good reason and logic behind my beliefs. To many people, this approach is too boring and "clinical" if you will. Many people want to hang onto their magic and mystery. I personally like it when those things are eliminated and we're left with evidence and raw truth. But to each his own...:D

Evolved1
 

science_is_my_god

Philosophical Monist
In my honest opinion, I think atheists have nothing to lose. Because if a god created us, and gave us the personality we have, then why do we value proof and evidence over blind faith? Whose fault is it that atheists do not believe in what can not be proven, when all a god would have to do is show us evidence of his existence? So even if a god created us, he must have created our ability to reason out his existence as well right?
 

logician

Well-Known Member
In my honest opinion, I think atheists have nothing to lose. Because if a god created us, and gave us the personality we have, then why do we value proof and evidence over blind faith? Whose fault is it that atheists do not believe in what can not be proven, when all a god would have to do is show us evidence of his existence? So even if a god created us, he must have created our ability to reason out his existence as well right?


I've always thought this was a good argument.
 

misanthropic_clown

Active Member
In my honest opinion, I think atheists have nothing to lose. Because if a god created us, and gave us the personality we have, then why do we value proof and evidence over blind faith? Whose fault is it that atheists do not believe in what can not be proven, when all a god would have to do is show us evidence of his existence? So even if a god created us, he must have created our ability to reason out his existence as well right?

Now, may I point out that I think your argument is good, and I am not saying that the theistic perspective I wish to outline below refutes it or is superior in any way, but I just wish to air the theistic perspective in a relatively coherent way in comparison to some of the ways it is aired from my experience of other forums:

The theistic perspective of what you are saying is that religious faith occurs when you "let go" of the purely scientific, and instead rely on faith. In a sense, God would view it as a personal challenge to you to decrease your reliance on facts and evidence and instead proceed with reliance on a more spiritual kind of affirmation.

Now, I can never emphasise this enough: This does not mean (rather by this, I personally do not mean) flying in the face of evidence. I would never dream of calling someone who completely disbelieves evolution in favour of fundamentalist creationism anything but unreasonable. It means taking the facts as far as they will take you, recognise their limits (and by that I mean the more fundamental (eg. purposive) limits as opposed to areas science has simply not yet explored) and proceed from there.

By that I mean science will never even attempt the answers of why, and will find itself limited as to the ultimate 'how?'. If we take a purely scientific view, we simply don't attempt to answer these questions, and sit there and shoot down those who try to form conclusions on the other side of the scientific border.

The purely scientific view doesn't really have much grounds of doing so beyond the contradictions that people make trying to reach an understanding beyond that point. There are no real fundamental reasons for disbelief of those who explore that area, atheists admit this when they say that they cannot say it is wrong, just that it appears hugely improbable.

All that reasonable theists do is have a shot at that which is beyond sciences capacity. That to me is the reasonable extent of religious faith. It is letting go of the scientific framework where it doesn't belong, and having a look around. To return from my rather convoluted point, the theistic explanation of your atheism would be that it is a personal challenge to let go of whatever keeps you from exploring beyond the realms of science, be it pride or just sheer lack of faith.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
By that I mean science will never even attempt the answers of why, and will find itself limited as to the ultimate 'how?'. If we take a purely scientific view, we simply don't attempt to answer these questions, and sit there and shoot down those who try to form conclusions on the other side of the scientific border.

The purely scientific view doesn't really have much grounds of doing so beyond the contradictions that people make trying to reach an understanding beyond that point. There are no real fundamental reasons for disbelief of those who explore that area, atheists admit this when they say that they cannot say it is wrong, just that it appears hugely improbable.

I agree, I think it is very important to understand the inherent limits of science. It is just those limits that define science and give it reliability and stability.

All that reasonable theists do is have a shot at that which is beyond sciences capacity. That to me is the reasonable extent of religious faith. It is letting go of the scientific framework where it doesn't belong, and having a look around.
Excellent, very well said!

To return from my rather convoluted point, the theistic explanation of your atheism would be that it is a personal challenge to let go of whatever keeps you from exploring beyond the realms of science, be it pride or just sheer lack of faith.
This however seems to be an arrogant assumption that those who don’t interpret the world in the same way that you do are somehow deficient, limited, prideful etc. Have you considered the possibility that some people are able to contemplate the universe in a way that transcends the limit of science and still remain atheists? (can you let go of your framework and have a look around?)


doppelgänger;1129835 said:
Why can't I be both?
This question should not be so quickly dismissed.
 

misanthropic_clown

Active Member
fantôme profane;1129963 said:
This however seems to be an arrogant assumption that those who don’t interpret the world in the same way that you do are somehow deficient, limited, prideful etc. Have you considered the possibility that some people are able to contemplate the universe in a way that transcends the limit of science and still remain atheists? (can you let go of your framework and have a look around?)

I apologise, I wasn't being intentionally arrogant. I was talking from a theistic standpoint (hence my framework), and trying to explain why some people become atheists. If theists are right, then it follows that atheists have fallen short on some front, and I was offering some of the perceived negative qualities of some atheists. I certainly wasn't trying to imply that such a thing were true of all atheists.

I am not sure I get your second point. Are you raising the point that some people give religion a go, but become atheists in the end? The bit in brackets suggests you are being a little more mystical than that, but that is all I can make sense of the sentence.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
I apologise, I wasn't being intentionally arrogant.
I am sure it wasn’t your intention, I just had to try to make a point.

I am not sure I get your second point. Are you raising the point that some people give religion a go, but become atheists in the end?
No. Although that is true it wasn’t my point.

The bit in brackets suggests you are being a little more mystical than that, but that is all I can make sense of the sentence.
Yes I am suggesting something a little more “mystical”. I am suggesting for example that Taoism, Buddhism, Pantheism, Zen and many other philosophies with or without names are all ways in which an atheist can understand the universe in ways that transcend the strict limits of science. And they can do so without becoming theists.
 

misanthropic_clown

Active Member
Aha, I see now. I have the (mistaken) tendency to paint atheism in a naturalistic brush which is not accurate. Atheism is purely concerning the existence of God, so one can be atheistic and still hold some supernatural element to their belief, yes.

I just find that the people who specifically identify themselves as atheists tend to hold naturalistic views, hence the confusion. It would have been more accurate to be using the term naturalists than atheists in my argument. Naturalists by definition do not care to dabble beyond the realms of science.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
fantôme profane;1129963 said:
This question should not be so quickly dismissed.
I agree. I have yet to meet anyone who wasn't both. Though sometimes it takes a few incisive questions to recognize both aspects in a person.
 

Random

Well-Known Member
fantôme profane;1129989 said:
Yes I am suggesting something a little more “mystical”. I am suggesting for example that Taoism, Buddhism, Pantheism, Zen and many other philosophies with or without names are all ways in which an atheist can understand the universe in ways that transcend the strict limits of science. And they can do so without becoming theists.

IMO, this view will crash and burn when confronted with the reality of self-realization.

What if understanding the external Universe is not the goal, or doesn't satisfy?
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
IMO, this view will crash and burn when confronted with the reality of self-realization.

What if understanding the external Universe is not the goal, or doesn't satisfy?
What makes you think I was restricting my comments to the “external” universe?
 

Random

Well-Known Member
fantôme profane;1130168 said:
What makes you think I was restricting my comments to the “external” universe?

Okay, good, so the inner realm and the outer, then. What is your vision of Atheistic transcendence beyond science, as you mentioned before? I mean you personally, not just Zen, Taoism or Pantheism as paths.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Okay, good, so the inner realm and the outer, then. What is your vision of Atheistic transcendence beyond science, as you mentioned before? I mean you personally, not just Zen, Taoism or Pantheism as paths.
Sorry, I feel no need to justify myself to you at this time. But thank you for asking.
 
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