Is it difficult to understand theists?

[Spirit of Light]

In different discussions or debates that has been in RF for some time, it look like some people have difficult in understanding how or why theists believe what they do?

If you have trouble understanding theists, what do you feel is the difficult?
When a theist answer you how he or she have their belief and how they come to their answers in the religious belief, do you take time to listen to what they theist sis trying to tell you? or do you use your own understanding of religion to assume what the theist actually saying is?

(PS: this is no attack at anyone who are not a theist, it hopefully will become a thread that clerify what you struggle to understand)

 

[Meow Mix]

I try to understand what someone is saying. I'm very sensitive to cognitivity: there are some theistic claims that I'm just not sure are even saying anything at all, like "God is love." I understand what "God is loving" would mean, because it's saying God has a property. But "God is love" is saying that God is a property, which is somewhat just nonsense. So I do struggle with claims that seem noncognitive at times, and will ask for clarification where possible. I often don't get satisfactory explanation though.

 

[Rawshak]

It is very difficult to understand theists, from my perspective, lets have a conversation,

If I told you I have a unicorn in my paddock, what would you reply?

 

[Spirit of Light]

It is very difficult to understand theists, from my perspective, lets have a conversation,

If I told you I have a unicorn in my paddock, what would you reply?

I would answer " i know little about unicorns, may you teach me about them? "

 

[Rawshak]

I would answer " i know little about unicorns, may you teach me about them? "

And if I was confronted with the same question my first response would be,

Excellent got any pictures?

You see we come at the world from different perspectives.

I want evidence before I consider it.

I cannot understand why you want to learn about something before you even know if it exists.

 

[Spirit of Light]

And if I was confronted with the same question my first response would be,

Excellent got any pictures?

You see we come at the world from different perspectives.

I want evidence before I consider it.

I cannot understand why you want to learn about something before you even know if it exists.

How can i refuse it if I do not know if it exist or not?

 

[Rawshak]

How can i refuse it if I do not know if it exist or not?

Do you think I am refusing something, I am not, I am just asking for evidence of its existence before seriously considering it.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Do you think I am refusing something, I am not, I am just asking for evidence of its existence before seriously considering it.

Personally I do not need physical evidence to think it might be true. When it comes to spiritual practice i have found so many Personal evidence that I do not doubt spiritual teaching.

 

[osgart]

In different discussions or debates that has been in RF for some time, it look like some people have difficult in understanding how or why theists believe what they do?

If you have trouble understanding theists, what do you feel is the difficult?
When a theist answer you how he or she have their belief and how they come to their answers in the religious belief, do you take time to listen to what they theist sis trying to tell you? or do you use your own understanding of religion to assume what the theist actually saying is?

(PS: this is no attack at anyone who are not a theist, it hopefully will become a thread that clerify what you struggle to understand)

I feel that the theist doesn't clarify or define God in a plausible way. For instance how would a timeless, immaterial being have existence? And how does that mind of that being actually operate on nature?

Also where is the evidence for the supernatural?
And what gives a theist reason to call nature a perfect design? Where is the evidence that it once was perfect?

I've worked myself to the point of seeing intelligence in nature and no design, but perhaps an artistic creativity is on display.

Nature to me is a lot like a program. I can see where a spiritual aspect to nature might exist because the self is no illusion, and I have a limited free will.

Omnipotence, and all knowing and ever present qualities are things no one has evidence for.

I see there are higher moral standards then what God holds; eternal punishment for non believers is moral failure.

The existence of God doesn't intuit well from my experience of reality. For me existence is a big mystery as to why things are the way they are and naturalism doesn't explain anything in regards to those mysteries. Theism goes way too far in concluding that God exists.

I find God to be more cultural than universal.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I try to understand what someone is saying. I'm very sensitive to cognitivity: there are some theistic claims that I'm just not sure are even saying anything at all, like "God is love." I understand what "God is loving" would mean, because it's saying God has a property. But "God is love" is saying that God is a property, which is somewhat just nonsense. So I do struggle with claims that seem noncognitive at times, and will ask for clarification where possible. I often don't get satisfactory explanation though.

Do they speak of physical love, or that God is unconditional love?

 

[Rawshak]

Personally I do not need physical evidence to think it might be true. When it comes to spiritual practice i have found so many Personal evidence that I do not doubt spiritual teaching.

To me you have just contradicted yourself, might be true and no doubt are very different.

 

[Spirit of Light]

To me you have just contradicted yourself, might be true and no doubt are very different.

One answer was about unicorns the other was about my belief in God

So no contradiction

 

[Rawshak]

One answer was about unicorns the other was about my belief in God

So no contradiction

Why the certitude in one and the doubt in another, this is what I find so difficult, it occurs to me that you have two conflicting ways at looking at the world, one for none religious values and one for religious values.
It is this dichotomy I find so hard to understand.

 

[Meow Mix]

Do they speak of physical love, or that God is unconditional love?

I usually don't get a sensible answer, so I really don't know. That's just an example of difficulties in understanding.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Why the certitude in one and the doubt in another, this is what I find so difficult, it occurs to me that you have two conflicting ways at looking at the world, one for none religious values and one for religious values.
It is this dichotomy I find so hard to understand.

To believe in God is easy, to fully believe in physical realm and all within it is not so easy
I value God over everything else

 

[Rawshak]

To believe in God is easy, to fully believe in physical realm and all within it is not so easy
I value God over everything else

It is easy for you, impossible for me. Since no one has ever explained why it is easy for them but impossible for me I think we have the reason why I find theists so hard to talk to when they talk about religious subjects.

 

[Spirit of Light]

It is easy for you, impossible for me. Since no one has ever explained why it is easy for them but impossible for me I think we have the reason why I find theists so hard to talk to when they talk about religious subjects.

Have you followed a religious teaching over time? And tried to change your own being from within?

If not there is your answer, a religious practice is to change from within in our own being

 

[Rawshak]

Have you followed a religious teaching over time?

No

And tried to change your own being from within?

I really do not even understand what that means, please explain.

If not there is your answer, a religious practice is to change from within in our own being

Why would I spend time following a religious practice when I do not know if a god exists?

 

[Spirit of Light]

No

I really do not even understand what that means, please explain.

Why would I spend time following a religious practice when I do not know if a god exists?

To realize God (faith is only the begining) one have to change ones own way of thinking, letting go of attachments like anger, frustration, greed, hate and so on, that is the first step, and also to understand each situation in life, why do you experience anger, frustration and so on.

So the teaching is there for us to understand what to look for in our own life, not to try to change others.
Life is a school to understand ones own being, to understand what causes us to suffer, so one can change the outcome in situation where in the past it went wrong.

When this is going on, the realiation of God will happen slowly from within even you do not ask for it.

 

[Rawshak]

To realize God (faith is only the begining)

Faith is only the beginning but you have to have faith to start with, it is circular reasoning.

Here is how I understand this,

You have to believe in god or you will never believe in God. It is maddening to be faced with arguments like this.