Is it difficult to understand theists?

[Spirit of Light]

I have faith

What is the difference in your faith in unicorns and a religous faith in God?

 

[Rawshak]

What is the difference in your faith in unicorns and a religous faith in God?

One is for the sake of a joke with another poster and the other one is because I like unicorns!

Another Joke CT, I am not really suggesting Unicorns exist or fly.

I do "see" some taste's though it is called Synaesthesia.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Actually I do, but that would involve a long discussion about where I am on the spectrum.

*looks around* Well, this appears to be a good venue for that.

We can see a Unicorn or not.

Can "we?"

Can "we" all agree on the color of this shoe?

The sense-organs can be misleading.

 

[Rawshak]

*looks around* Well, this appears to be a good venue for that.




Can "we?"

Can "we" all agree on the color of this shoe?

The sense-organs can be misleading.

No, but we can agree that it is an image of something that looks like a shoe.

Please don't get me started on how we all see colour different or I might bore you to death with my pictures that are nearly all monochrome.

 

[AlexanderG]

How can i refuse it if I do not know if it exist or not?

If someone told you they had a unicorn in their back yard, your response would seriously be "Please teach me more about it, so I can consider whether I should accept or refuse it"? I just don't believe you, because this seems very insincere, and it's part of the frustration of speaking with theists.

I would say the barrier in understanding between me and theists is that I can't comprehend why you would believe something is real for such poor reasons. Responses like yours above also hint that you know you have bad reasons, because time and again theists apparently refuse to directly and sincerely answer such questions. I get the impression that theistic beliefs are a constant effort, where straightforward questions must be suppressed and avoided almost daily.

I just couldn't live that way. It would be unsustainable, and I wouldn't see the point. I suppose if I'd been raised threatened by infinite torture if I didn't believe such things, and I had emotionally internalized that message, then I would have some motivation, but I don't think I would be able to keep the belief and I don't understand why any of you do it.

 

[ChristineM]

In different discussions or debates that has been in RF for some time, it look like some people have difficult in understanding how or why theists believe what they do?

If you have trouble understanding theists, what do you feel is the difficult?
When a theist answer you how he or she have their belief and how they come to their answers in the religious belief, do you take time to listen to what they theist sis trying to tell you? or do you use your own understanding of religion to assume what the theist actually saying is?

(PS: this is no attack at anyone who are not a theist, it hopefully will become a thread that clerify what you struggle to understand)

I have great difficulty in believing in magic, in the supernatural, anything that doesn't have compelling, falsifiable evidence behind it.

When a theist tells me god did it, i will ask for evidence, real falsifiable evidence, not 'it says so in a bronze age book' or i have had a personal experience... Ain't we all. What point attributing said experience to supernatural without evidence?

You guessed it, i am an evidence based person. One cannot live on faith alonr

 

[Spirit of Light]

If someone told you they had a unicorn in their back yard, your response would seriously be "Please teach me more about it, so I can consider whether I should accept or refuse it?" I just don't believe you, because this seems very insincere, and it's part of the frustration of speaking with theists.

I would say the barrier in understanding between me and theists is that I can't comprehend why you would believe something is real for such poor reasons. Responses like yours above also hint that you know you have bad reasons, because time and again theists apparently refuse to directly and sincerely answer such questions. I get the impression that theistic beliefs are a constant effort, where straightforward questions must be suppressed and avoided almost daily.

I just couldn't live that way. It would be unsustainable, and I wouldn't see the point. I suppose if I'd been raised threatened by infinite torture if I didn't believe such things, and I had emotionally internalized that message, then I would have some motivation, but I don't think I would be able to keep the belief and I don't understand why any of you do it.

The spiritual path i am on (sufism) is a inward path, meaning there is no physical evidence i could show to those who do not believe in a God, or religion for that matter. The path is about understanding one self, it is a personal journey to realize God from within and how do you want me to prove God to you if God is wisdom, light, truth and so on and not a physical being?

That you do not believe in what i say is my belief and understanding of sufism, that is your right to do, it does not change how i believe I wonder what "bad reason" you refering to when it is my personal belief? If you believe something totally different than i do, i am happy you found what you believe to be true. Because spiritual/ religious practice is exactly that. To find the truth and it is done through practicing religiously for many people, But the answer people realize from within, will be understood differently than others.

 

[jonathan180iq]

I think the point of faith is that it doesn't matter if something is real, or tangible. Arguably, a theist trying to prove their deity of choice exists is a non-argument; meaning it can only go one way and it isn't productive.

Instead, the theist should focus on what their faith does for them, and how it leads them to a richer life. Whether or not a God(s) exists is rather inconsequential, in that vein.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I think the point of faith is that it doesn't matter if something is real, or tangible. Arguably, a theist trying to prove their deity of choice exists is a non-argument; meaning it can only go one way and it isn't productive.

Instead, the theist should focus on what their faith does for them, and how it leads them to a richer life. Whether or not a God(s) exists is rather inconsequential, in that vein.

You actually described the inward path of spiritual practice.

 

[jonathan180iq]

That's all that

You actually described the inward path of spiritual practice.

I mean, I think that's what all faithful endeavors are... Sufi, Christian, Hindu, it's all the same; people trying to figure out who they are and what they think and what it meaningful

 

[Rawshak]

The spiritual path i am on (sufism) is a inward path, meaning there is no physical evidence i could show to those who do not believe in a God, or religion for that matter. The path is about understanding one self, it is a personal journey to realize God from within and how do you want me to prove God to you if God is wisdom, light, truth and so on and not a physical being?

That you do not believe in what i say is my belief and understanding of sufism, that is your right to do, it does not change how i believe I wonder what "bad reason" you refering to when it is my personal belief? If you believe something totally different than i do, i am happy you found what you believe to be true. Because spiritual/ religious practice is exactly that. To find the truth and it is done through practicing religiously for many people, But the answer people realize from within, will be understood differently than others.

I think you may have forgotten the point of your thread CT which I took to mean Why do we have difficulty talking to each other?
I think it is because we look at the world in entirely different ways but only when it comes to religious concepts. I think the theist is aware of this and is careful when answering because he knows the contradictions it leads to.

 

[blü 2]

In different discussions or debates that has been in RF for some time, it look like some people have difficult in understanding how or why theists believe what they do?

If you have trouble understanding theists, what do you feel is the difficult?
When a theist answer you how he or she have their belief and how they come to their answers in the religious belief, do you take time to listen to what they theist sis trying to tell you? or do you use your own understanding of religion to assume what the theist actually saying is?

(PS: this is no attack at anyone who are not a theist, it hopefully will become a thread that clerify what you struggle to understand)

If people treat others with decency, respect and inclusion, in reality I don't care whether they believe or not.

If people don't treat others with decency, respect and inclusion, in reality I still don't care whether they believe or not.

But on the debate boards of RF, it's sometimes a different story.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I think you may have forgotten the point of your thread CT which I took to mean Why do we have difficulty talking to each other?
I think it is because we look at the world in entirely different ways but only when it comes to religious concepts. I think the theist is aware of this and is careful when answering because he knows the contradictions it leads to.

I did not forget the OP I just had to answer many questions from you guys...

I encounter contradiction in my life every day (physical world) so if there sometimes happens in spiritual practice too, i do not see a problem with it. there is as i said earlier many answers to the same questions in spiritual practice due to the different levels of understanding people are on, and how far they have come in their spiritual practice,

and. the world is not always logical nor is the spiritual realms,

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. it look like some people have difficult in understanding how or why theists believe what they do?
If you have trouble understanding theists, what do you feel is the difficult?
.. do you take time to listen to what the theist is trying to tell you?

Well, not me. Been theist half my life (and in a theist family), I quite understand how theists think. They are superstitious.
There is nothing much to listen in it. They believe that way, and do not need any evidence.
I have no problem with theists. If that floats their boat, they are welcome to it.
It gives them hope, even if falsely, of an eternal life after death or of a better rebirth, or of magically solving their problems.
It does keep away many from bad deeds and engage in good deeds. So, that is OK.

 

[AlexanderG]

Such details don´t hinder modern astrophysicists and cosmologist to think something exist before having concrete evidences of it.

No, they hypothesize that something could exist. They understand that they're not justified in concluding that it exists until they get the confirming evidence. The hypothesis is a speculative guess. It is the very first step in the scientific method, and the step that theism can never seem to go beyond.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The spiritual path i am on (sufism) is a inward path, meaning there is no physical evidence i could show to those who do not believe in a God, or religion for that matter.
The path is about understanding one self, it is a personal journey to realize God from within and how do you want me to prove God to you if God is wisdom, light, truth and so on and not a physical being?

No, a Sufi has to believe in Allah (1) and what he said in Quran (2) and in who brought Allah's message to you (3). No Sufi can deny that even if there be no evidence of any of these things.

 

[AlexanderG]

The spiritual path i am on (sufism) is a inward path, meaning there is no physical evidence i could show to those who do not believe in a God, or religion for that matter. The path is about understanding one self, it is a personal journey to realize God from within and how do you want me to prove God to you if God is wisdom, light, truth and so on and not a physical being?

That you do not believe in what i say is my belief and understanding of sufism, that is your right to do, it does not change how i believe I wonder what "bad reason" you refering to when it is my personal belief? If you believe something totally different than i do, i am happy you found what you believe to be true. Because spiritual/ religious practice is exactly that. To find the truth and it is done through practicing religiously for many people, But the answer people realize from within, will be understood differently than others.

That's fine, and if it's meaningful and fulfilling for you then go for it. I have no gripe with you. But this thread is about why it is difficult to understand theists so I was addressing that question.

You used phrases like "spiritual path," "inward path," "personal journey," and "answer realized from within." To me, these all sounds like euphemisms for "what I personally imagine," and there is nothing to indicate that they correspond to the reality outside your imagination, in any way. Given also that different people arrive at mutually contradictory "answers realized from within," this is a further indication that we are dealing with subjective personal imagination rather than objective facts about reality.

I have fun imagining a lot of things, even things that I wish were true. But I can't simply believe something just because I can imagine it and find it appealing. To me, this frankly seems like the height of irrationality. I just don't understand how anyone can do this and take themselves seriously, let alone expect others to take them seriously. That was my point. That's all.

 

[Spirit of Light]

No, a Sufi has to believe in Allah (1) and what he said in Quran )2) and in who brought Allah's message to you (3). No Sufi can deny that even if there be no evidence of any of these things.

Of course i believe in Allah and the messenger.
But to awaken allah from within the path is to look within ones own being and take away every negativity and unhealthy thoughts. To believe in Allah is one thing, to understand Allah is something very different

 

[Rawshak]

But to awaken allah from within the path

I have absolutely no idea what this means, none.

It is like we are talking two different languages.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In different discussions or debates that has been in RF for some time, it look like some people have difficult in understanding how or why theists believe what they do?

If you have trouble understanding theists, what do you feel is the difficult?
When a theist answer you how he or she have their belief and how they come to their answers in the religious belief, do you take time to listen to what they theist sis trying to tell you? or do you use your own understanding of religion to assume what the theist actually saying is?

(PS: this is no attack at anyone who are not a theist, it hopefully will become a thread that clerify what you struggle to understand)

First off, I should probably say that I generally think of theists in two groups:

First: "casual" theists. These are the people who have a general idea of some higher power and nominally belong to some particular religion (often the one they were raised in). They may strongly associate with their church/temple/gurdwara/etc. because they see it as beautiful/moving/an important aspect of their culture/etc., but they don't necessarily think too deeply about the theology.

Second: "hardcore" theists. The sorts of theists who hang out on forums like this one tend to be hardcore theists, IMO. These are the people who are uber-serious about God and make it the core focus of their lives.

I don't really have an issue with the casual theists. I kinda get where they're at, even if it isn't my thing, just like how I can appreciate how people can grow up to be fans of a particular sports team and not ever question whether they should cheer for the Seahawks instead of the Packers (or maybe not be into football at all).

The hardcore theists... I don't get them. To me, thinking deeply about God ought to make someone less theistic, not more. I can't understand how someone could make God - not just the trappings of a religion, but God - the centre of their lives.

... especially the ones who will come on here and give arguments for theism that amount to nothing more than "you can't prove God doesn't exist!" To me, if there's something I can't establish as real, it's because it's basically irrelevant to my life.

I mean, look at all the threads by theists about stuff like the Kalaam Cosmological Argument. This is not an argument used by someone who has a strong foundation for their faith. If someone has made God the centre of their life, they should have ample evidence that they can provide at the drop of a hat that God at least exists without having to rely on arguments that are based around arcane properties of the universe.

So that's what I have real difficulty in understanding: hardcore theists who deeply reflect on the basis of their faith, find not much to base their faith on, but make God the focus of their life anyway.