Is it difficult to understand theists?

[Spirit of Light]

Faith is only the beginning but you have to have faith to start with, it is circular reasoning.

Here is how I understand this,

You have to believe in god or you will never believe in God. It is maddening to be faced with arguments like this.

You can also start from a non belief, and when you study the texts the belief will arise when you understand more.
Spiritual/religious practice is not done exactly the same for every one, what works for me does not mean the same method of realization will happen for you

 

[Rawshak]

You can also start from a non belief, and when you study the texts the belief will arise when you understand more.
Spiritual/religious practice is not done exactly the same for every one, what works for me does not mean the same method of realization will happen for you

Let us accept everything you say is true, now explain why I should chose one religion over another without using faith.

 

[Native]

In different discussions or debates that has been in RF for some time, it look like some people have difficult in understanding how or why theists believe what they do?

If you have trouble understanding theists, what do you feel is the difficult?
When a theist answer you how he or she have their belief and how they come to their answers in the religious belief, do you take time to listen to what they theist sis trying to tell you? or do you use your own understanding of religion to assume what the theist actually saying is?

I think it really is a problematic "cultural thing".

The Abrahamic religious tradition i western countries has long ago become very dogmatic with its loss of mythical/spiritual understanding and lack of explaining of the cosmological symbolism.

This have in large extend lead to atheistic thinking and as lots of religious texts refers to spiritual guidance, the individual spiritual belief in western countries also have declined, mostly ending up in a mechanical and mathematical belief system.

A modern interpretation of the ancient mythical/religious text is much needed, in where "gods" and "goddesses" are translated to generally represent "natural forces of creation" working on and above the Earth. In this sense anyone can understand both ancient religion's and their own spiritual connection the creation in general.

When studying Comparative Mythology and Religion, one can find several religions which contains real astronomical and cosmological knowledge which both can complement and regulate modern scientific cosmological thinking, for instants the ancient thoughts of a cyclical, eternal and infinite Universe.

A couple more links:
Creation myth - Wikipedia
List of creation myths - Wikipedia
Mytho-Cosmology - Ancient Science. The Ancient and native Way of Knowledge

 

[Spirit of Light]

Let us accept everything you say is true, now explain why I should chose one religion over another without using faith.

That is not something i would be able to tell you, because it is all up to your own investigation in to the scriptures and what become the teaching you choose, again only you can make that choice

 

[RestlessSoul]

It is very difficult to understand theists, from my perspective, lets have a conversation,

If I told you I have a unicorn in my paddock, what would you reply?

I wouldn’t.


Oh, I just did…

 

[Rawshak]

That is not something i would be able to tell you, because it is all up to your own investigation in to the scriptures and what become the teaching you choose, again only you can make that choice

Can you see how this conversation is getting no where because every time I ask you to actually explain you say that it is for me to find out.

Getting back to my unicorn can you imagine if we had a long conversation about it but every time you asked to see the unicorn I told you that, you must look within yourself, you must find your own scripture, you must follow your own path.

Hopefully you are eventually you are going to make a polite excuse and walk away.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Can you see how this conversation is getting no where because every time I ask you to actually explain you say that it is for me to find out.

Getting back to my unicorn can you imagine if we had a long conversation about it but every time you asked to see the unicorn I told you that, you must look within yourself, you must find your own scripture, you must follow your own path.

Hopefully you are eventually you are going to make a polite excuse and walk away.

There is no need for an exuse, because spiritual practice happens from within each person who practice, a spiritual teacher (i am not one) will never give a clearn answer to the student, because then the student can not awaken spiritually to it. Secondly if the spiritual teacher always gave the answer, how would a person gain wisdom? (not knowledge)

 

[Native]

Do you think I am refusing something, I am not, I am just asking for evidence of its existence before seriously considering it.

Such details don´t hinder modern astrophysicists and cosmologist to think something exist before having concrete evidences of it.

 

[Erebus]

I consider myself a theist, though I fall into a category that makes some people view me as an atheist/agnostic in denial. It's easy for me to understand god beliefs in a general sense, though there are some that I honestly find baffling.

As an example, I've listened to multiple arguments on how to square a loving God with the existence of eternal Hell. I've tried to understand the arguments but they almost always strike me as excuse-making or evasion. They may make sense to the person making those arguments but I genuinely can't wrap my head around how they can dismiss the gaping flaws. I'm sure some of those people can't wrap their heads around how I'm apparently incapable of seeing why their arguments are good.

The most compelling argument I've come across for both a loving God and eternal Hell is in Swedenborgianism. Hell is the place where those who are genuinely only happy if they're able to inflict harm on others are able to act in accordance with their nature. Since Heaven doesn't allow them to do that, it would ultimately be more hellish to them than Hell.

I still see flaws in this viewpoint (eternity is a long time) but it's the only interpretation I've encountered that makes sense to me.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In different discussions or debates that has been in RF for some time, it look like some people have difficult in understanding how or why theists believe what they do?

If you have trouble understanding theists, what do you feel is the difficult?
When a theist answer you how he or she have their belief and how they come to their answers in the religious belief, do you take time to listen to what they theist sis trying to tell you? or do you use your own understanding of religion to assume what the theist actually saying is?

(PS: this is no attack at anyone who are not a theist, it hopefully will become a thread that clerify what you struggle to understand)

At the end, we can only interpret things from our worldview. For example, I have an idea of what theist mean by god so much that if I don't tell them I don't believe God exist they would never know. I feel all theist regardless the religion have similar physiological and in part psychological experiences of "god" or an experience that changes their lives and practice.

It's hard to understand if theist view their god as a being or entity. Unlike experience it's hard to identify with that view cause it's not my worldview.

Think about it. To someone who believes in god (to switch the question) wont understand a life without god. How can they imagine s world without god in order to identify with atheist and understand them?

Two things need to happen-theist need to explain god through experience not jargon since that's understandable than talking of entities. Be willing to drop ones guard and explain your god experience

Atheist need to be open to different definitions of god. If they judge every theist believing in one type of god it would get no where.

The question has to be applied to both parties so both can listen to each other, understand the best they can, put away preconceived definitions of atheist and theist (one way is to not see atheist as humanist and not see theists believing in unicorns). It would be nice if both parties have inner understanding but most theist can't imagine a world without god and likewise the opposite.

I don't know

 

[Spirit of Light]

At the end, we can only interpret things from our worldview. For example, I have an idea of what theist mean by god so much that if I don't tell them I don't believe God exist they would never know. I feel all theist regardless the religion have similar physiological and in part psychological experiences of "god" or an experience that changes their lives and practice.

It's hard to understand if theist view their god as a being or entity. Unlike experience it's hard to identify with that view cause it's not my worldview.

Think about it. To someone who believes in god (to switch the question) wont understand a life without god. How can they imagine s world without god in order to identify with atheist and understand them?

Two things need to happen-theist need to explain god through experience not jargon since that's understandable than talking of entities. Be willing to drop ones guard and explain your god experience

Atheist need to be open to different definitions of god. If they judge every theist believing in one type of god it would get no where.

The question has to be applied to both parties so both can listen to each other, understand the best they can, put away preconceived definitions of atheist and theist (one way is to not see atheist as humanist and not see thrust believing in unicorns). It would be nice if both parties have inner understanding but most theist can't imagine a world without gid and likewise the opposite.

I don't know

Actually i agree with what you say here, and your answer is the kind of thoughtful answer i was hoping someone would add in this thread

And yes, Theists who has never had a thought of "god does not exist" may never truly understand Atheists, so for a theist to "imagine" a day without God in their life may not be so easy.

 

[Rawshak]

Such details don´t hinder modern astrophysicists and cosmologist to think something exist before having concrete evidences of it.

I challenge that they think that something exists rather than suggest it might exist. For instance show me an astrophysicist or cosmologist who states the universe had a cause?

 

[SalixIncendium]

While I don't always agree with the beliefs of a theist, I usually understand why they believe as they do.

 

[SalixIncendium]

It is very difficult to understand theists, from my perspective, lets have a conversation,

If I told you I have a unicorn in my paddock, what would you reply?

First, I'd ask you what the heck a "paddock" is...

 

[SalixIncendium]

And if I was confronted with the same question my first response would be,

Excellent got any pictures?

To me, this is a closed-minded response.

When you eat, you taste, correct? Do you have any pictures of your taste? (Yes, this is a poor analogy, but I am only on my first cup of coffee for the day...)

My point is this: sometimes personal experience can't be supported by physical objective evidence. That doesn't preclude one from being able to understand another's experiences or subsequent beliefs.

 

[Rawshak]

First, I'd ask you what the heck a "paddock" is...

It is a small fenced area where you keep unicorns or sometimes horses.

The problem with paddocks for unicorns is that some species can fly.

 

[SalixIncendium]

It is a small fenced area where you keep unicorns or sometimes horses.

The problem with paddocks for unicorns is that some species can fly.

Well that's not a very stable way to keep unicorns, is it?

 

[Spirit of Light]

It is a small fenced area where you keep unicorns or sometimes horses.

The problem with paddocks for unicorns is that some species can fly.

If you do not believe in unicorns how do you know they can fly

 

[Rawshak]

When you eat, you taste, correct? Do you have any pictures of your taste? (Yes, this is a poor analogy, but I am only on my first cup of coffee for the day...)

Actually I do, but that would involve a long discussion about where I am on the spectrum.

My point is this: sometimes personal experience can't be supported by physical objective evidence. That doesn't preclude one from being able to understand one's experiences or subsequent beliefs.

We can see a Unicorn or not.

 

[Rawshak]

If you do not believe in unicorns how do you know they can fly

I have faith