Is it moral for God to punish us?

[Greatest I am]

Is it moral for God to punish us?

Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

We live in a history that God has set up and is fully responsible for. God, punishing man, who can do nothing but follow God’s plan and the nature God has put in us, is having innocent people suffer for the wrongs God himself has pre-destined and which cannot be altered.

For example.

God chose to have Jesus sacrificed. God, in his planning book would also have decided who would kill Jesus. There would be no way for that man to not kill Jesus or God’s plan would fall off the rails and in this case, we would not have a messiah or scapegoat to ride into heaven.

Some will say we have free will but as shown in the example above, Jesus’ killer could not refrain from killing Jesus without derailing God’s plan. Further, to pre-destine any one action or condition within a history changes all other conditions and pre-destines all conditions within the plan. Think the butterfly effect.

Having said the above and having shown that we have no free will if anything is pre-destined, I think it would be quite immoral for God to judge or punish us for being and doing exactly what he pre-ordained for us in his plan. We have no choice and to punish us is immoral.

Do you agree?

If not, why not?

Regards
DL

 

[Thief]

would it be moral to stand back and watch?
hmmmmm......

 

[Greatest I am]

would it be moral to stand back and watch?
hmmmmm......

Not if God loves us as some say.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Would you ignore someone you love and just let them make a mistake that would send them to hell?

Regards
DL

 

[Lyndon]

Is it moral for God to punish us?

Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

We live in a history that God has set up and is fully responsible for. God, punishing man, who can do nothing but follow God’s plan and the nature God has put in us, is having innocent people suffer for the wrongs God himself has pre-destined and which cannot be altered.

For example.

God chose to have Jesus sacrificed. God, in his planning book would also have decided who would kill Jesus. There would be no way for that man to not kill Jesus or God’s plan would fall off the rails and in this case, we would not have a messiah or scapegoat to ride into heaven.

Some will say we have free will but as shown in the example above, Jesus’ killer could not refrain from killing Jesus without derailing God’s plan. Further, to pre-destine any one action or condition within a history changes all other conditions and pre-destines all conditions within the plan. Think the butterfly effect.

Having said the above and having shown that we have no free will if anything is pre-destined, I think it would be quite immoral for God to judge or punish us for being and doing exactly what he pre-ordained for us in his plan. We have no choice and to punish us is immoral.

Do you agree?

If not, why not?

Regards
DL

You really need to talk to God about this, I think God would totally disagree with your mischarachterization of God.

 

[Augustus]

Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

If we operate under the assumption that God is real and created the universe then of course it is moral. Nothing would exist independent of God, including morality.

The only morality that can be known to exist is God's.

 

[Thief]

Not if God loves us as some say.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Would you ignore someone you love and just let them make a mistake that would send them to hell?

Regards
DL

does seem the scheme of things for most.

a few are chosen.

 

[Demonslayer]

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Knock+knock+it+s+salvation+*****es_ee0bb4_5418594.jpg

 

[Iti oj]

would it be moral to stand back and watch?
hmmmmm......

god doesn't intervene though, god punishes after the fact, so god does stand back and watch.

 

[Lyndon]

I don't think its God that punishes us, God is always there to help us, our punishment is a function of Karma, or the natural order of things, I don't really see Karma being incorporated in God, in fact I see Karma as a some what cruel master, much less likely to forgive us, than God.

In other words I think Karma is more associated with the bad or evil forces, they are what punishes us, not God..

 

[Iti oj]

I don't think its God that punishes us, God is always there to help us, our punishment is a function of Karma, or the natural order of things, I don't really see Karma being incorporated in God, in fact I see Karma as a some what cruel master, much less likely to forgive us, than God.

In other words I think Karma is more associated with the bad or evil forces, they are what punishes us, not God..

interesting . do you hold that in a duelistic way?

 

[Lyndon]

I actually see karma, and the forces of less than good as being the entire physical atomic structure of the Universe(the pantheos??), as we know well, re earthquakes, tornadoes, and hurricanes our world is not perfect, and our world is not just, I don't believe that is God's fault, and I don't see any reason God should be blamed for flaws in the atomic structure of our universe, I don't believe God created it. God to me is a spirit, a non atomic, supernatural spiritual force, perhaps made up of some sub atomic particles, possible even the dark matter scientist propose, i don't know, its only speculation. So yes I am dualist in that I see the atomic physical universe as one reality, and the non atomic invisible spiritual world, of the Gods, gods, angels, ghosts etc as the other world. I don't believe for a minute that the God I worship is the only inhabitant of the spiritual realm I speak of.

 

[Koldo]

If we operate under the assumption that God is real and created the universe then of course it is moral. Nothing would exist independent of God, including morality.

The only morality that can be known to exist is God's.

That is, of course, assuming that God either created or is sovereign over morality. In which case that entails really interesting consequences.

 

[Koldo]

I don't think its God that punishes us, God is always there to help us, our punishment is a function of Karma, or the natural order of things, I don't really see Karma being incorporated in God, in fact I see Karma as a some what cruel master, much less likely to forgive us, than God.

In other words I think Karma is more associated with the bad or evil forces, they are what punishes us, not God..

In what way God help us ?

 

[Lyndon]

In what way God help us ?

To find out you would have to sincerely ask God to help you and guide you, and then see if you notice a difference in your life. God helps me every day, if I didn't have God's help my life would be terrible, I have a lot of major problems, physical illnesses, Manic depression, low income, and yet by the grace of God, I do incredibly well, I don't crave possessions and things,I don't have a cell phone or a TV, I have a few close friends and quite a few acquaintances. I thank God repeatedly for how good my life is, I see poor people with similar disabilities to me doing quite poorly and its very sad. Disabled people are not treated very well by our people or government, so being majorly disabled but still able to run my small at home violin repair and sales business, is a gift from God IMHO I can't speak for you but IMHO everything good that I have comes from God.

 

[Augustus]

That is, of course, assuming that God either created or is sovereign over morality. In which case that entails really interesting consequences.

I don't believe in God, but I'm basing this on the monotheist "super God" concept where He is the daddy of everything. This God must be responsible for morality.

If this God created everything, to Him we are like a computer game or a doll's house is to us.

There was a thread a while ago about what would people do if such a God was definitely real. It amazed me that many atheists thought that it wouldn't change anything and that their existing morality premised on God not existing would still apply just the same if He was undeniably real.

 

[Koldo]

To find out you would have to sincerely ask God to help you and guide you, and then see if you notice a difference in your life. God helps me every day, if I didn't have God's help my life would be terrible, I have a lot of major problems, physical illnesses, Manic depression, low income, and yet by the grace of God, I do incredibly well, I don't crave possessions and things,I don't have a cell phone or a TV, I have a few close friends and quite a few acquaintances. I thank God repeatedly for how good my life is, I see poor people with similar disabilities to me doing quite poorly and its very sad. Disabled people are not treated very well by our people or government, so being majorly disabled but still able to run my small at home violin repair and sales business, is a gift from God IMHO I can't speak for you but IMHO everything good that I have comes from God.

I will be more specific in my question: In what way exactly do you think that God helps you ? Altering your mood, relieving your pain, making people more prone to helping you, reducing your symptoms... ?

 

[Koldo]

I don't believe in God, but I'm basing this on the monotheist "super God" concept where He is the daddy of everything. This God must be responsible for morality.

If this God created everything, to Him we are like a computer game or a doll's house is to us.

There was a thread a while ago about what would people do if such a God was definitely real. It amazed me that many atheists thought that it wouldn't change anything and that their existing morality premised on God not existing would still apply just the same if He was undeniably real.

I suggest reading about the Euthyphro dilemma.
What is your solution ?

 

[columbus]

God, in his planning book would also have decided who would kill Jesus. There would be no way for that man to not kill Jesus or God’s plan would fall off the rails and in this case, we would not have a messiah or scapegoat to ride into heaven.

Judas does present some interesting moral conundrums.

If Jesus Christ specifically picked him as an apostle, Judas Iscariot had to either do as planned or he would have derailed the Divine Plan for Salvation.
Along with Mother Mary, Judas is the most important human being in the whole thing. Without him, there would be no Salvation. Vilifying him seems ungrateful to the extreme.

Now I could understand that, if the other disciples weren't really up to speed on the whole story. But if Jesus spent the next forty days teaching, one would expect the disciples to at least understand that Judas was much more than a villain.

Tom

 

[Etritonakin]

Not if God loves us as some say.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Would you ignore someone you love and just let them make a mistake that would send them to hell?

Regards
DL

God is ABLE to destroy both body and spirit in Gehenna -or make things rather uncomfortable for those who make things rather uncomfortable before that -and that is essentially the ultimatum for those who ultimately refuse to do good -but that is not what the "fire" is all about.

God declared the end from the beginning, but that is not necessarily predetermination of every last thing that happens. We have choice, but he is guiding us to the correct choice as necessary and as quickly as possible. We are allowed to make incorrect choices, but the overall results are guided to a predetermined end which will eventually benefit all.

1Cor 3
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Though we have choice, we also have limited options, needs, desires -and most of our choices can be known by God beforehand by considering all other things -including our present mindset.

God is using experience and our environment to bring us to a correct mindset.

The interrelationships of the choices of humans gives them experience.
God's "punishment" or "judgment" will be according to individual works -which go forth from their mindset. It will be an individualized correction based on individual mindsets which brought forth different works.

The correction some receive will be more.... uncomfortable that that of others -but it will not be unfair.

If any were to be eventually completely destroyed, they would not be the sort you would miss.

The bible likens the process to refining gold.
God can make perfect bodies instantaneously, but perfect minds require a different process.
Awesome creations tend to require not only craftsmanship and finesse, but also extreme pressures and forces.

God is creating more gods. His intent was not merely to create simple and happy humans.

 

[Lyndon]

I will be more specific in my question: In what way exactly do you think that God helps you ? Altering your mood, relieving your pain, making people more prone to helping you, reducing your symptoms... ?

Answering my prayers.