Is it moral for God to punish us?

[ChristineES]

Your bible says that those who believe in Jesus, and you obviously do, you should be able to do all he did and more. Why bother God then when that same God says you can do it yourself if you believe in him?

Regards
DL

That isn't exactly how it works. Belief isn't enough, we also have to repent.

 

[Greatest I am]

My faith teaches that yes, it is moral for God to punish us. But we also believe that there is a solution to that punishment.

Yes but is it a moral solution?

I ask a fairly simple moral question to many Christians who never answer it yet will never debate this issue with me as they know deep down that they are not following a moral tenet.

See if you can answer it.

Is having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, immoral?

Regards
DL

 

[ChristineES]

Yes but is it a moral solution?

I ask a fairly simple moral question to many Christians who never answer it yet will never debate this issue with me as they know deep down that they are not following a moral tenet.

See if you can answer it.

Is having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, immoral?

Regards
DL

If it were just another human, then I could answer the question. My in my faith, Yeshua wasn't "just another human". He, according to my faith, was sinless. According to our belief, he was The Sacrificial Lamb: An unblemished lamb.

 

[Greatest I am]

That isn't exactly how it works. Belief isn't enough, we also have to repent.

That is not how scriptures state it.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/17-20.htm

Note that those say nothing of repentance.

I will show you how repentance works after you answer the question above.

Regards
DL

 

[FearGod]

Is it moral for God to punish us?

Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

We live in a history that God has set up and is fully responsible for. God, punishing man, who can do nothing but follow God’s plan and the nature God has put in us, is having innocent people suffer for the wrongs God himself has pre-destined and which cannot be altered.

For example.

God chose to have Jesus sacrificed. God, in his planning book would also have decided who would kill Jesus. There would be no way for that man to not kill Jesus or God’s plan would fall off the rails and in this case, we would not have a messiah or scapegoat to ride into heaven.

Some will say we have free will but as shown in the example above, Jesus’ killer could not refrain from killing Jesus without derailing God’s plan. Further, to pre-destine any one action or condition within a history changes all other conditions and pre-destines all conditions within the plan. Think the butterfly effect.

Having said the above and having shown that we have no free will if anything is pre-destined, I think it would be quite immoral for God to judge or punish us for being and doing exactly what he pre-ordained for us in his plan. We have no choice and to punish us is immoral.

Do you agree?

If not, why not?

Regards
DL

Are you sure that God will punish the disbelievers in the hell fire before making such judgement about God's morality?

 

[ChristineES]

That is not how scriptures state it.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/17-20.htm

Note that those say nothing of repentance.

I will show you how repentance works after you answer the question above.

Regards
DL

There are other verses that do indeed say we need to repent. I have to get ready for work soon, so I don't have time to post them right now, but I can later, if you wish.

 

[Etritonakin]

So, to you, we are God's make work project that he has to babysit through life. Sigh.

I have raise 4 boys and if I had to do to them what you say God is doing with us, while still loosing the vast majority of us to hell, I would be quite the failure as a parent just as your God is as a creator.

What I find strange is the one of the first things a priest or imam will tell you is how unknowable, unfathomable and mysterious God is. The second think they will then tell you is the reams of data that they know of the unknowable, fathom of the unfathomable and have gleaned of the ways of the God who works in mysterious ways.

And those lying priests and imams have the gullible believing those obvious lies and paying to be lied to.

What a strange people we are.

Regards
DL

Why do you assume most will be lost to hell? None are now in hell (except the grave) -and most misunderstand what the bible says on the subject.
It is possible that none will be lost.

Make work project? You mean we didn't pop out knowing how to do things correctly and needed to be taught? That's about right.

After 4 boys, you should understand why God limited man's lifespan to 120 years.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

 

[ChristineES]

The bible states that those who believe in Jesus are not condemned, but those who do not have already been condemned. As for what that means, I'd like to hear others' opinions on it.

 

[Greatest I am]

If it were just another human, then I could answer the question. My in my faith, Yeshua wasn't "just another human". He, according to my faith, was sinless. According to our belief, he was The Sacrificial Lamb: An unblemished lamb.

These quotes do not speak of exceptions to good biblical morality.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Note how your wicked sins are your own to deal with.

Jesus sais that we are to pick up our crosses and follow him.

He did not tell us as you say we should, pick up our crosses and lay them on his shoulders.

Be he God or not, makes no difference to your responsibility for your own actions and sins.

Regards
DL

 

[ChristineES]

These quotes do not speak of exceptions to good biblical morality.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Note how your wicked sins are your own to deal with.

Jesus sais that we are to pick up our crosses and follow him.

He did not tell us as you say we should, pick up our crosses and lay them on his shoulders.

Be he God or not, makes no difference to your responsibility for your own actions and sins.

Regards
DL

Yes. That's where repentance comes in. It's up to each of us to repent. Repentance is taking responsibility for our own actions. As I said, belief isn't enough, we need to repent from our sins, according to my faith.

 

[MARCELLO]

He doesn't punish us,he just lets his creatures to exterminate each other and eat to survive. He has made such a beautiful movie that as an actor I have to kill you just because I need something to eat or I will die.

So,his punishments?? Who cares? We all know that he will kill every of us.

 

[Unification]

Not if God loves us as some say.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Would you ignore someone you love and just let them make a mistake that would send them to hell?

Regards
DL

An individual is free to do as they will, creating their own outcomes. Creating their own heaven or hell. But their will isn't free, it comes with consequences.
Do something stupid, a conscious state of hell follows. Hell is required to learn lessons. A price to be paid. When a choice is made, the number of potential outcomes of the spectrum of life are plentiful. One is only being their own worst enemy. They need saved from themselves. Latent potential rests within.

I suppose the "Lord" corrects and teaches those that are loved, those that aren't loved are still evil. Evil is not to be delighted in. Yes, the evil are not loved, or delighted in, and they are ignored.

 

[Unification]

He doesn't punish us,he just lets his creatures to exterminate each other and eat to survive. He has made such a beautiful movie that as an actor I have to kill you just because I need something to eat or I will die.

So,his punishments?? Who cares? We all know that he will kill every of us.

Is life sufficient for you?

 

[Greatest I am]

Why do you assume most will be lost to hell? None are now in hell (except the grave) -and most misunderstand what the bible says on the subject.
It is possible that none will be lost.

Make work project? You mean we didn't pop out knowing how to do things correctly and needed to be taught? That's about right.

After 4 boys, you should understand why God limited man's lifespan to 120 years.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The longest unambiguously documented human lifespan is that of Jeanne Calment of France (1875–1997), who died at age 122 years,

I do not assume that most will be lost to hell. I read the scriptures that say that most will take the wide road to hell while only the few will take the narrow path to heaven.

If you are to use the Jewish Gehenna then do you also follow Jewish teachings that Satan, or Ha-shaitan is not evil but just God's best angel doing his work?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

The bible states that those who believe in Jesus are not condemned, but those who do not have already been condemned. As for what that means, I'd like to hear others' opinions on it.

That probably goes with the scriptures that say that God already has his book with all our names in it that was written when he made his great plan for mankind.

And the scriptures that say he will give grace to those he will and not to those he will not.

Regards
DL

 

[MARCELLO]

Is life sufficient for you?

of course not.It is so short.

 

[Greatest I am]

An individual is free to do as they will, creating their own outcomes. Creating their own heaven or hell. But their will isn't free, it comes with consequences.
Do something stupid, a conscious state of hell follows. Hell is required to learn lessons. A price to be paid. When a choice is made, the number of potential outcomes of the spectrum of life are plentiful. One is only being their own worst enemy. They need saved from themselves. Latent potential rests within.

I suppose the "Lord" corrects and teaches those that are loved, those that aren't loved are still evil. Evil is not to be delighted in. Yes, the evil are not loved, or delighted in, and they are ignored.

Yet Jesus said he came to heal the sick. Not minister to the well.

You have the great shepherd not going after the poor lost sheep.

Regards
DL

 

[ChristineES]

Here are a few verses speaking of repenting:

Mark 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Luke 13:5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

There are a lot more, and not just in the Christian scriptures but in the Tanakh, as well.

 

[Unification]

Yet Jesus said he came to heal the sick. Not minister to the well.

You have the great shepherd not going after the poor lost sheep.

Regards
DL

When one has had enough self created sickness, they may choose to get to work on themselves.

You have the poor lost sheep not realizing their latent potential or desire to change.

 

[Greatest I am]

of course not.It is so short.

How old are you and have you ever visited an old age home and spoken to so of the older residents?

I have and saw a number of old who hated waking up to another day of nothing but eating ****ting themselves and going to sleep to just repeat the same thing again the next day.

Sure, if one has a reason for waking up, it is great to wake up. Many wake up and pray for death on that day and every day from then on just so they can stop eating and soiling themselves day after day.

I like that Canada has passed a right to die law. I can see a good number of old taking that blessing.

Regards
DL