Is it moral for God to punish us?

[viole]

I actually see karma, and the forces of less than good as being the entire physical atomic structure of the Universe(the pantheos??), as we know well, re earthquakes, tornadoes, and hurricanes our world is not perfect, and our world is not just, I don't believe that is God's fault, and I don't see any reason God should be blamed for flaws in the atomic structure of our universe, I don't believe God created it. God to me is a spirit, a non atomic, supernatural spiritual force, perhaps made up of some sub atomic particles, possible even the dark matter scientist propose, i don't know, its only speculation. So yes I am dualist in that I see the atomic physical universe as one reality, and the non atomic invisible spiritual world, of the Gods, gods, angels, ghosts etc as the other world. I don't believe for a minute that the God I worship is the only inhabitant of the spiritual realm I speak of.

Isn't more simple to postulate that there are no gods nor evil forces and that "bad" things happen just because nature has no concept whatsoever of what it is doing?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Koldo]

Answering my prayers.

In what way ? By altering the world according to your wishes, by giving you answers in your mind... ?

 

[Augustus]

I suggest reading about the Euthyphro dilemma.
What is your solution ?

What is good and just is what God wills. Different gods have different moral codes; if the Aztec gods were real, then what is just would be different.

Goodness and justice don't exist outside of god's will. If he created everything, then it is purely arbitrary. What exists in your painting is because you painted it.

 

[George-ananda]

Do you agree?

I think you are pointing out perhaps some issues with conservative Christian thought. I don't agree that this is the way more sophisticated theists/pantheists see things.

 

[Koldo]

What is good and just is what God wills. Different gods have different moral codes; if the Aztec gods were real, then what is just would be different.

Goodness and justice don't exist outside of god's will. If he created everything, then it is purely arbitrary. What exists in your painting is because you painted it.

If morality is arbitrary, why do I ought to follow God's commandment ?

 

[Augustus]

If morality is arbitrary, why do I ought to follow God's commandment ?

Arbitrary in the same sense that the rules of football are arbitrary. When playing football you follow the rules of football, you don't do as you please.

If you break the rules, you can't complain if you are punished even if you disagree with the rules as they exist.

 

[Koldo]

Arbitrary in the same sense that the rules of football are arbitrary. When playing football you follow the rules of football, you don't do as you please.

If you break the rules, you can't complain if you are punished even if you disagree with the rules as they exist.

Do you mean that God possesses sovereignty because he can punish us for breaking his rules, or is this ability something extra to his sovereignty ?
Do I ought to follow God's commandment strictly because he can punish me ?

 

[dust1n]

would it be moral to stand back and watch?
hmmmmm......

Would it be moral to stand back and watch, and then punish someone after the fact?

 

[Augustus]

Do I ought to follow God's commandment strictly because he can punish me ?

You also have to accept that the commandments are 'right' by any objective standards. Unless you think you know more than god, that is.

 

[Koldo]

You also have to accept that the commandments are 'right' by any objective standards. Unless you think you know more than god, that is.

Let me grant you that.
Now, why do I ought to do what is 'right' ?

 

[Greatest I am]

You really need to talk to God about this, I think God would totally disagree with your mischarachterization of God.

How would he try to correct my poor thinking?

How about an argument with some teeth for me to bite back on.

Break the logic trail if you can.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

If we operate under the assumption that God is real and created the universe then of course it is moral. Nothing would exist independent of God, including morality.

The only morality that can be known to exist is God's.

I will play. God is said to have lived forever alone before initiating creation.

Morals are only created by a species so that it's members can live in harmony without all killing each other off. A creature, even a God, living alone would not need to develop morals and that is why God is often said to be amoral.

He could therefore not have a clue as to what morals are all about.

That is why bible God, as in the story of King David, can torture his baby for 6 days before finally killing it.

No moral God would do that. Right?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

does seem the scheme of things for most.

a few are chosen.

Then he cannot be a good creator because a good creator would always create something or someone for their best possible end. God then cannot be said to be anywhere near a perfect creator the way the bible touts his to be. Right?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I don't think its God that punishes us, God is always there to help us, our punishment is a function of Karma, or the natural order of things, I don't really see Karma being incorporated in God, in fact I see Karma as a some what cruel master, much less likely to forgive us, than God.

In other words I think Karma is more associated with the bad or evil forces, they are what punishes us, not God..

So if a parent sees a truck about to run his child over and does nothing, it is all karma's fault that the child dies even though the parent could have saved it. Nice God you follow buddy. You can keep that one.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

To find out you would have to sincerely ask God to help you and guide you, and then see if you notice a difference in your life. God helps me every day, if I didn't have God's help my life would be terrible, I have a lot of major problems, physical illnesses, Manic depression, low income, and yet by the grace of God, I do incredibly well, I don't crave possessions and things,I don't have a cell phone or a TV, I have a few close friends and quite a few acquaintances. I thank God repeatedly for how good my life is, I see poor people with similar disabilities to me doing quite poorly and its very sad. Disabled people are not treated very well by our people or government, so being majorly disabled but still able to run my small at home violin repair and sales business, is a gift from God IMHO I can't speak for you but IMHO everything good that I have comes from God.

All those conditions that your God leaves you with yet you think he is helping you.

Why does he play with your woes? Why not just cure them?

The time he is using to play with you, he could actually use to, I don't know, save the 10 million or so that will starve or die of other curable conditions each and every year.

If you are a good person I would have though that you would have told God to get the hell out of your life and go help someone who was in more dire need than yourself.

Some thank God for saving the one baby in the plane crash while ignoring that God is the one who let the rest of the passengers die.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Judas does present some interesting moral conundrums.

If Jesus Christ specifically picked him as an apostle, Judas Iscariot had to either do as planned or he would have derailed the Divine Plan for Salvation.
Along with Mother Mary, Judas is the most important human being in the whole thing. Without him, there would be no Salvation. Vilifying him seems ungrateful to the extreme.

Now I could understand that, if the other disciples weren't really up to speed on the whole story. But if Jesus spent the next forty days teaching, one would expect the disciples to at least understand that Judas was much more than a villain.

Tom

Good point and I agree.

The key to the Judas story lies during the last supper where Jesus hands Judas the bread. That soaked bread is called a sop. A sop is what is offered to one whom you trust and are making a bargain with. You will note that even after the rest of the group knows Judas is getting up to go betray Jesus, not a one of them lifts a finger or tries to argue Judas out of it.

John 13:26
Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

Full Definition of SOP
1chiefly dialect : a piece of food dipped or steeped in a liquid
2: a conciliatory or propitiatory bribe, gift, or gesture

They might have gotten about right in this movie.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

God is ABLE to destroy both body and spirit in Gehenna -or make things rather uncomfortable for those who make things rather uncomfortable before that -and that is essentially the ultimatum for those who ultimately refuse to do good -but that is not what the "fire" is all about.

God declared the end from the beginning, but that is not necessarily predetermination of every last thing that happens. We have choice, but he is guiding us to the correct choice as necessary and as quickly as possible. We are allowed to make incorrect choices, but the overall results are guided to a predetermined end which will eventually benefit all.

1Cor 3
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Though we have choice, we also have limited options, needs, desires -and most of our choices can be known by God beforehand by considering all other things -including our present mindset.

God is using experience and our environment to bring us to a correct mindset.

The interrelationships of the choices of humans gives them experience.
God's "punishment" or "judgment" will be according to individual works -which go forth from their mindset. It will be an individualized correction based on individual mindsets which brought forth different works.

The correction some receive will be more.... uncomfortable that that of others -but it will not be unfair.

If any were to be eventually completely destroyed, they would not be the sort you would miss.

The bible likens the process to refining gold.
God can make perfect bodies instantaneously, but perfect minds require a different process.
Awesome creations tend to require not only craftsmanship and finesse, but also extreme pressures and forces.

God is creating more gods. His intent was not merely to create simple and happy humans.

So, to you, we are God's make work project that he has to babysit through life. Sigh.

I have raise 4 boys and if I had to do to them what you say God is doing with us, while still loosing the vast majority of us to hell, I would be quite the failure as a parent just as your God is as a creator.

What I find strange is the one of the first things a priest or imam will tell you is how unknowable, unfathomable and mysterious God is. The second think they will then tell you is the reams of data that they know of the unknowable, fathom of the unfathomable and have gleaned of the ways of the God who works in mysterious ways.

And those lying priests and imams have the gullible believing those obvious lies and paying to be lied to.

What a strange people we are.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Answering my prayers.

Your bible says that those who believe in Jesus, and you obviously do, you should be able to do all he did and more. Why bother God then when that same God says you can do it yourself if you believe in him?

Regards
DL

 

[ChristineES]

My faith teaches that yes, it is moral for God to punish us. But we also believe that there is a solution to that punishment.

 

[Greatest I am]

You also have to accept that the commandments are 'right' by any objective standards. Unless you think you know more than god, that is.

Morals are subjective are they not?

When we do unto others, that is a subjective call. Not an objective one.

Name a couple of objective moral tenets so that we might see what you think those are please.

Regards
DL