Is it moral for God to punish us?

[idea]

The Bible states that when Jesus healed people, he would tell them, afterward, "Go and sin no more".

Great point Christine!

I think there are natural consequences to sin. Jesus and God advise people not to sin out of love, an intervention sort of thing - so that we can avoid bad consequences, and enjoy the happiness and peace that righteous living brings.

 

[Etritonakin]

Morals are only a human constructs, God if he did exist wouldn't be under any such thing, he would only do what he wanted to do and we have to except that, but for me we are free from that, as I don't believe in god.

I agree somewhat with the last part. Human morals are based on the nature of man, Godly morals on the nature of God.

The moral code concerning marriage, for example, will not apply when we no longer marry or are given in marriage (are without gender, essentially),
so things apply to the nature and reality of the situation.

Keeping the ten commandments could not be required of animals who could not even possibly memorize them.

The fact that we can consider such things makes such things a consideration.

If vengeance is wrong, why would God say "vengeance is mine"?

God kills just about everyone, but we don't get to kill? How is that fair?

The nature of God does make it right that he does certain things -because he can do them right.
He can kill someone and raise them from the dead -and that is very much a consideration.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

It's rather an impossibility to ask to be born -so we really do just have to deal with it. Fortunately, God considers that fact -and it will make it worthwhile.

 

[psychoslice]

I agree somewhat with the last part. Human morals are based on the nature of man, Godly morals on the nature of God.

The moral code concerning marriage, for example, will not apply when we no longer marry or are given in marriage (are without gender, essentially),
so things apply to the nature and reality of the situation.

Keeping the ten commandments could not be required of animals who could not even possibly memorize them.

The fact that we can consider such things makes such things a consideration.

If vengeance is wrong, why would God say "vengeance is mine"?

God kills just about everyone, but we don't get to kill? How is that fair?

The nature of God does make it right that he does certain things -because he can do them right.
He can kill someone and raise them from the dead -and that is very much a consideration.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

It's rather an impossibility to ask to be born -so we really do just have to deal with it. Fortunately, God considers that fact -and it will make it worthwhile.

Yea not a bad thought, but for me there is no god, so to live together in peace some morals are worth having, of course we shouldn't go through a red light as we might kill someone, or ourselves even, but to have a god with extra rules, isn't needed, unless of course one doesn't have the intelligence to do the right thing.

 

[Augustus]

Morals are subjective are they not?

When we do unto others, that is a subjective call. Not an objective one.

Name a couple of objective moral tenets so that we might see what you think those are please

I agree.

Post was in the context of 'what if God was really, definitely, undeniably real', rather than what I actually believe in real life.

 

[Thief]

Morals are only a human constructs, God if he did exist wouldn't be under any such thing, he would only do what he wanted to do and we have to except that, but for me we are free from that, as I don't believe in god.

so then.....we are not a reflection of Something Greater?

 

[Etritonakin]

Yea not a bad thought, but for me there is no god, so to live together in peace some morals are worth having, of course we shouldn't go through a red light as we might kill someone, or ourselves even, but to have a god with extra rules, isn't needed, unless of course one doesn't have the intelligence to do the right thing.

Well.... I'd say the right thing and peace aren't winning the day... Or history, overall...

The "extra rules" -such as the first few of the ten commandments -are necessary for eternal peace -but also to make right all of the evil which has been thus far. Law must have a real and accurate foundation -and that is the reality of the existence of God.

The saying "God is equal" in the bible does not just mean he is fair -but that all of the evil on this side of the equation will be turned to good on the other side of the equation.

That is also why it is written that he gave the creation over to futility in hope -and that the creation now subject to disorder awaits the liberty of the children of God.

It is understandable that many do not believe, but according to scripture those drawn by God (though not all who believe they are) to truly understand God's extra rules (man also makes some up, but they are different) and their necessity in this time -called "first fruits" -will actually comprise the literal government under God and Christ in the future.

It will be a government capable of causing and teaching peace.
After it is established those humans alive at the time will repopulate the earth, and all who have ever lived will eventually be resurrected to that situation -which could not have been without this situation, and the government will serve for their benefit. It will not be as human government -which is served by those governed.
They will not merely be raised again as humans, but will also have the opportunity for immortality then.
It is written that the heavens and earth were not created in vain, but were formed to be inhabited -and we will then be given awesome power to create througought the universe -being given a body similar to that which allowed the creation of the universe and earth.

God alone is capable of bringing that about -so having no other gods before God is both logical and necessary for universal order.

 

[Demonslayer]

Well.... I'd say the right thing and peace aren't winning the day... Or history, overall...

I hear this a lot, this idea that society is crumbling and we have all this moral decay. The idea is, as fewer and fewer people believe in God, morality is declining. But today is actually the safest time in history to live, and overall we have far, far more human rights and kindness than ever.

Think about it. How has morality declined if you compare today to, say, medieval Europe? In those days everyone believed in God, yet society featured a handful of super powerful kings and nobles that treated the peasant class like slaves and brought unspeakable torture to whomever they chose based on a completely corrupt system of justice. I mean the King could, if he chose, take your wife's virginity the night before you married her if you were a peasant. This is also the time we saw millions of innocent people murdered in the Crusades and the Inquisition. This is the moral society brought about by a deep belief in God?

Or how about ~1700-1850 right here in the good old US of A? That was an extremely devout Christian society, all God-fearing folk right? Yet we owned, beat, raped and murdered slaves, quoting Bible verses to justify our actons, did we not? Not to mention the lynching and marginalizing that went on even once we abolished slaves. This is the morallity we get when we have a very religious society?

Think about that for a second. If believing in God makes you moral, or if religion or belief in Jesus is supposed to guide you to kindness and peace and love, how did an entire society for 150 years commit such widespread...dare I say...evil? Where was the kindness of Jesus?

Anyway, with the media running 24/7 and showing this terrorist attack, that school shooting, and other acts of cruelty that exist in the world, it's temping to say "oh look, the world is going to hell in a handbasket." But it really isn't, quite the opposite, overall today is the best time in history to be alive. Of course society isn't perfect, but it's damn sure more moral than Medieval Europe, America during the slave days, or virtually any other time in that past that you can point to.

 

[Greatest I am]

Seems about the opposite of Gnostic Christian worldview. Quite surprised you claim that title associates with the ideas you share here.

You do not seem familiar with what Gnostic Christianity is in terms of our world view.

It starts at about here.

Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Gnostic Christian Jesus the good preached for the freedom of man from religious dogma and tradition just as one of the biblical Jesus did when he said that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.

These below show clearly that as a brethren to Jesus, I nor anyone who follows these quotes need kowtow to another's theology or philosophy. Gnostic Christianity is about free thinkers. Not about selling our freedom of thought to some other man made God. Especially not to the vile and immoral Christian God.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Yes. God is the ultimate moral authority in the universe. In a sense, it is you being judged by You. You ask the question and it is YOU as the Judge. What could be fairer ?

No argument. Not just in a sense though. In reality. This aside.

It is the vile Christian demiurge is who I was basing the question on.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Morals are only a human constructs, God if he did exist wouldn't be under any such thing, he would only do what he wanted to do and we have to except that, but for me we are free from that, as I don't believe in god.

True. Moral or not, God could not be differentiated from Satan.

Just read the bible and see how satanic that God is.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Sounds like about 120 years then -as opposed to many hundreds lived by Methuselah, etc.... Maybe if it was 122 years, 164 days written in the bible, more people would believe it

I think you would benefit from reading other scriptures on the subject and merging them.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

I use the Gehenna used here....
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Satan chooses to do evil. The fact that God allows it temporarily for a purpose -and will eventually undo the evil -does not make it good.

Justice delayed is justice denied.

God is not a just God or judge as can easily be seen with his demand and acceptance of a bribe or sacrifice to corrupt his usual justice of punishing the guilty instead of the innocent.

That bribe show how corrupt the Christian God is.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Well.... I'd say the right thing and peace aren't winning the day... Or history, overall...

The "extra rules" -such as the first few of the ten commandments -are necessary for eternal peace -but also to make right all of the evil which has been thus far. Law must have a real and accurate foundation -and that is the reality of the existence of God.

The saying "God is equal" in the bible does not just mean he is fair -but that all of the evil on this side of the equation will be turned to good on the other side of the equation.

That is also why it is written that he gave the creation over to futility in hope -and that the creation now subject to disorder awaits the liberty of the children of God.

It is understandable that many do not believe, but according to scripture those drawn by God (though not all who believe they are) to truly understand God's extra rules (man also makes some up, but they are different) and their necessity in this time -called "first fruits" -will actually comprise the literal government under God and Christ in the future.

It will be a government capable of causing and teaching peace.
After it is established those humans alive at the time will repopulate the earth, and all who have ever lived will eventually be resurrected to that situation -which could not have been without this situation, and the government will serve for their benefit. It will not be as human government -which is served by those governed.
They will not merely be raised again as humans, but will also have the opportunity for immortality then.
It is written that the heavens and earth were not created in vain, but were formed to be inhabited -and we will then be given awesome power to create througought the universe -being given a body similar to that which allowed the creation of the universe and earth.

God alone is capable of bringing that about -so having no other gods before God is both logical and necessary for universal order.

Hogwash.

If your absentee God wanted us to believe in his reality, then the fool would not be absentee.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Well.... I'd say the right thing and peace aren't winning the day... Or history, overall...

I hear this a lot, this idea that society is crumbling and we have all this moral decay. The idea is, as fewer and fewer people believe in God, morality is declining. But today is actually the safest time in history to live, and overall we have far, far more human rights and kindness than ever.

Think about it. How has morality declined if you compare today to, say, medieval Europe? In those days everyone believed in God, yet society featured a handful of super powerful kings and nobles that treated the peasant class like slaves and brought unspeakable torture to whomever they chose based on a completely corrupt system of justice. I mean the King could, if he chose, take your wife's virginity the night before you married her if you were a peasant. This is also the time we saw millions of innocent people murdered in the Crusades and the Inquisition. This is the moral society brought about by a deep belief in God?

Or how about ~1700-1850 right here in the good old US of A? That was an extremely devout Christian society, all God-fearing folk right? Yet we owned, beat, raped and murdered slaves, quoting Bible verses to justify our actons, did we not? Not to mention the lynching and marginalizing that went on even once we abolished slaves. This is the morallity we get when we have a very religious society?

Think about that for a second. If believing in God makes you moral, or if religion or belief in Jesus is supposed to guide you to kindness and peace and love, how did an entire society for 150 years commit such widespread...dare I say...evil? Where was the kindness of Jesus?

Anyway, with the media running 24/7 and showing this terrorist attack, that school shooting, and other acts of cruelty that exist in the world, it's temping to say "oh look, the world is going to hell in a handbasket." But it really isn't, quite the opposite, overall today is the best time in history to be alive. Of course society isn't perfect, but it's damn sure more moral than Medieval Europe, America during the slave days, or virtually any other time in that past that you can point to.

+ 1

We have pulled a full billion out of poverty in the last 20 years and the stats show we will do the same in the next 20.

We do have little problems in the world at present but if one checks the stats for violent death including war, poverty and slavery, as well as the other markers for evil, we see that they are at the best levels that we have ever enjoyed.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I agree somewhat with the last part. Human morals are based on the nature of man, Godly morals on the nature of God.
.

Yet God himself, in Eden, said that man became the way he is in our thinking and moral sense.

You might want to read your bible and try to understand what it says. It says we think exactly as God does.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

How can a brethren of Jesus not think like Jesus?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I agree.

Post was in the context of 'what if God was really, definitely, undeniably real', rather than what I actually believe in real life.

Ok.

But if he was real, he would be amoral and not moral. Being only one in his species, he would never have to develop a set of morals as he would not have anyone to apply them to. Morals are only developed by a species that must have them to live in harmony.

Perhaps being amoral is why the bible God seems like such a vile demiurge.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

so then.....we are not a reflection of Something Greater?

No. Something greater is a reflection of man.

There is nothing greater than man unless men say it is so.

Regards
DL

 

[Augustus]

We do have little problems in the world at present but if one checks the stats for violent death including war, poverty and slavery, as well as the other markers for evil, we see that they are at the best levels that we have ever enjoyed.

We also see that the 20th C was the most murderous in history.

We'll be back in the gutter soon enough. We're just too arrogant to accept it. History is cyclical, not teleological and short term trends don't inspire long term confidence.

Just keep repeating 'we're getting better, we're getting better...'

 

[Etritonakin]

+ 1

We have pulled a full billion out of poverty in the last 20 years and the stats show we will do the same in the next 20.

We do have little problems in the world at present but if one checks the stats for violent death including war, poverty and slavery, as well as the other markers for evil, we see that they are at the best levels that we have ever enjoyed.

Regards
DL

little problems.... you should get out more.

 

[Greatest I am]

We also see that the 20th C was the most murderous in history.

We'll be back in the gutter soon enough. We're just too arrogant to accept it. History is cyclical, not teleological and short term trends don't inspire long term confidence.

Just keep repeating 'we're getting better, we're getting better...'

I don't need to. The stats are doing it for me.

But you just keep thinking the sky is falling and that you have to rely on some supernatural immoral and vile demiurge to lead us instead of counting on the only God you can ever know. Yourself.

Stay in poverty.


Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

little problems.... you should get out more.

I gave my evidence. Where is yours?

Regards
DL