Is it ok to mock beliefs?

[gnomon]

A thread not about Richard Dawkins is now about Richard Dawkins. Someone's obsession is paying off.

Personally, I think TextsFromDrone was a great idea.

 

[robo]

Is it ever ok to mock religious beliefs? Or even non-religious beliefs?

Are there some beliefs that are just completely off the table?

If there are some beliefs that are immune to mockery, which ones? Why? How to we distinguish between beliefs that are ripe for ridicule, and those that are immune?

In general, I would say mocking is bad. It is bad vibes for both the mocked and the mocker.

BUT, religions that seek to impose public policy based on some arcane and bizzare stuff in their holy books should be mercilessly mocked.

I dont care what beliefs you hold but if you bring those beliefs to the public square and want special treatment - treatment of homosexuals, treatment of apostates, abortion controversy, etc. - just because your God said so, no way should that be allowed.

 

[ChristineES]

People will mock, ridicule, spoof, etc others until the end of time. The important thing is to take in all in stride- just because someone believes something about you or your organization doesn't mean that it is true about you or your organization. Just because someone teases you about your organization doesn't necessarily mean that they hate it. And if he or she doesn't understand it, that is his or her problem, not yours or mine. I think we are becoming too sensitive as a people- it doesn't really matter what a stranger or even an associate thinks of you.

 

[HerDotness]

Sorry, Hottie Dottie, but I must disagree. IMO, Dawkins is using exactly the same tactics. I've pointed out numerous links why I believe this to be true, but if you disagree, then I think we should agree to disagree.

Do NOT call me "Hottie Dottie." You may call me Dot or HD. Are we quite clear on that?

One thing is evident. You haven't provided one link or other evidence to back up your opinion. Why?

What do you think I must provide evidence for? That I don't regard Dawkins as a "perfect bigot"? I explained why I think he's a hardcore atheist, but I don't see him as fulfilling all of the conditions in the definition cited by Prophet. What *I* think in this regard--that Dawkins isn't a hardcore or "perfect bigot"--doesn't require evidence since I'm expressing my opinion.

Edit to add: If your reference to my failing to provide evidence refers to my mentioning his "Mock...Revile" from the Reason Rally speech, I'm not doing that again. Go read the Reason Rally speech thread if you want to see where I provided extensive and detailed evidence demonstrating my opinion about his intended meaning.

 

[fantome profane]

People will mock, ridicule, spoof, etc others until the end of time. The important thing is to take in all in stride- just because someone believes something about you or your organization doesn't mean that it is true about you or your organization. Just because someone teases you about your organization doesn't necessarily mean that they hate it. And if he or she doesn't understand it, that is his or her problem, not yours or mine. I think we are becoming too sensitive as a people- it doesn't really matter what a stranger or even an associate thinks of you.

I kid because I love.

 

[Muffled]

God mocks belief in idols so I would say it is ok. Reasonably speaking all debate is mockery because it is predicated on not believing what the other person believes and giving reasons why the other belief has no basis.

 

[Muffled]

In general, I would say mocking is bad. It is bad vibes for both the mocked and the mocker.

BUT, religions that seek to impose public policy based on some arcane and bizzare stuff in their holy books should be mercilessly mocked.

I dont care what beliefs you hold but if you bring those beliefs to the public square and want special treatment - treatment of homosexuals, treatment of apostates, abortion controversy, etc. - just because your God said so, no way should that be allowed.

All this from a person who believes in vibes! I'll take the Word of God over vibes any day. (Somehow vibes don't get me wins at the casino, go figure.)

Since it is public policy, one should remember that I am a member of the public and often don't like the way other people vote but we are stuck with it anyway. If a captain pilots his ship into an iceburg everyone on-board suffers.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

People will mock, ridicule, spoof, etc others until the end of time. The important thing is to take in all in stride- just because someone believes something about you or your organization doesn't mean that it is true about you or your organization. Just because someone teases you about your organization doesn't necessarily mean that they hate it. And if he or she doesn't understand it, that is his or her problem, not yours or mine. I think we are becoming too sensitive as a people- it doesn't really matter what a stranger or even an associate thinks of you.

We don't have the right to not be offended.

 

[A Troubled Man]

Is it ever ok to mock religious beliefs? Or even non-religious beliefs?

Are there some beliefs that are just completely off the table?

If there are some beliefs that are immune to mockery, which ones? Why? How to we distinguish between beliefs that are ripe for ridicule, and those that are immune?

All ideas, concepts, beliefs, non-beliefs are all fair game for ridicule, no problem.

However, ridicule has been known to backfire now and again and sometimes winds up showing foolishness on the part of the riduculor and not the ridiculee.

But hey, I've been on both sides of that coin in one way or another. No problem.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Out of curiosity - and this is directed specifically at the people who think that mockery is unacceptable - just what do you consider "mockery"?

I would include tactics like sarcasm and reductio ad absurdum to be forms of mockery. I think these things can have their place in polite conversation.

... But what I'm trying to figure out is whether the people who are against mockery are against these sorts of tactics, or whether they have more severe things in mind when they say "mockery".

 

[Jacksnyte]

I enjoy a good mocking. My beliefs are mocked regularly by others, as well as myself! It is good to be able to see the humor in everything! I think more wars(both flame and physical) could be avoided if both sides just grew a sense of humor!

 

[fantome profane]

Out of curiosity - and this is directed specifically at the people who think that mockery is unacceptable - just what do you consider "mockery"?

I would include tactics like sarcasm and reductio ad absurdum to be forms of mockery. I think these things can have their place in polite conversation.

... But what I'm trying to figure out is whether the people who are against mockery are against these sorts of tactics, or whether they have more severe things in mind when they say "mockery".

That is an excellent question. I was interpreted the word in a fairly broad sense. But I would also like to hear what other people think.

 

[Kathryn]

Mockery, to me, goes further than sarcasm or a prickly comment. It involves derision, and often a blatant attempt to dehumanize and degrade a person publicly. It's more akin to contempt than it is to sarcasm.

That's just my opinion. And as I've stated earlier, there's a very thin line between mocking an IDEA and mocking a person - it takes one quite skilled in mockery to differentiate.

And I think that difference is very important.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Mockery, to me, goes further than sarcasm or a prickly comment. It involves derision, and often a blatant attempt to dehumanize and degrade a person publicly. It's more akin to contempt than it is to sarcasm.

That's just my opinion. And as I've stated earlier, there's a very thin line between mocking an IDEA and mocking a person - it takes one quite skilled in mockery to differentiate.

And I think that difference is very important.

Okay - so to a certain extent, it may be that we have a disagreement over semantics: when I hear someone say "mockery is never acceptable", I take this to mean that they're including even "gentle" forms of mockery like mild sarcasm.

If you're saying that you think that disrespectful forms of communication are unacceptable, then in most cases, I would agree with you. It's just that for me, not all of what I consider "mockery" is necessarily disrespectful.

And as for the fine line between criticizing the beliefs and the person, I'd say it's more blurry than fine. Our beliefs reflect on us, especially in the case of religious beliefs, which many people hold as foundational. It's a bit disingenuous to pretend there's a firm divide between the beliefs and the person: if I tell someone that their deepest, most cherished beliefs are unreasonable, I don't think we can honestly claim that I haven't implicitly said something about the person who has utterly accepted the beliefs I'm calling unreasonable.

 

[Kathryn]

Okay - so to a certain extent, it may be that we have a disagreement over semantics: when I hear someone say "mockery is never acceptable", I take this to mean that they're including even "gentle" forms of mockery like mild sarcasm.

If you're saying that you think that disrespectful forms of communication are unacceptable, then in most cases, I would agree with you. It's just that for me, not all of what I consider "mockery" is necessarily disrespectful.

And as for the fine line between criticizing the beliefs and the person, I'd say it's more blurry than fine. Our beliefs reflect on us, especially in the case of religious beliefs, which many people hold as foundational. It's a bit disingenuous to pretend there's a firm divide between the beliefs and the person: if I tell someone that their deepest, most cherished beliefs are unreasonable, I don't think we can honestly claim that I haven't implicitly said something about the person who has utterly accepted the beliefs I'm calling unreasonable.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

Here's the difference though, between mocking a belief and mocking a person.

"That's a crazy idea! I can't make any sense of it!"

"You're insane if you believe that, you Faith-Head."

 

[A Troubled Man]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

Here's the difference though, between mocking a belief and mocking a person.

"That's a crazy idea! I can't make any sense of it!"

"You're insane if you believe that, you Faith-Head."

Exactly, but have you ever found that many believers will state that when you mock their beliefs, you mock them personally, as if the beliefs were part of them in some way?

 

[Kathryn]

Exactly, but have you ever found that many believers will state that when you mock their beliefs, you mock them personally, as if the beliefs were part of them in some way?

I don't think believers hold a monopoly on that reaction. I think it's human nature. That's why it's even more important, in my opinion, to use language that removes the mockery from the individual specifically, and if they react personally, it's a great opportunity to point out to them that you did not attack them personally.

It's a fine point - but an important one. It takes some patience and maturity and self education and moderation to apply this to our daily speech, but it can be well worth the effort.

Of course, that's only if one actually WANTS to have a respectful, constructive conversation. That's the biggest question.

 

[A Troubled Man]

I don't think believers hold a monopoly on that reaction. I think it's human nature. That's why it's even more important, in my opinion, to use language that removes the mockery from the individual specifically, and if they react personally, it's a great opportunity to point out to them that you did not attack them personally.

It's a fine point - but an important one. It takes some patience and maturity and self education and moderation to apply this to our daily speech, but it can be well worth the effort.

Of course, that's only if one actually WANTS to have a respectful, constructive conversation. That's the biggest question.

It very well may be human nature, but most certainly we can rise above with intelligence to know whether or not we are being insulted personally or our ideas and beliefs are being mocked. I tend to welcome any ridicule or mocking to any of my ideas, if warranted.

I have tried in vane to explain to those believers who feel they've being personally insulted when their gods and beliefs are criticized, but to no avail.

 

[ChristineES]

We don't have the right to not be offended.

I didn't say we didn't have a right to not be offended, just that we become offended to easily.

 

[Kathryn]

It very well may be human nature, but most certainly we can rise above with intelligence to know whether or not we are being insulted personally or our ideas and beliefs are being mocked. I tend to welcome any ridicule or mocking to any of my ideas, if warranted.

I have tried in vane to explain to those believers who feel they've being personally insulted when their gods and beliefs are criticized, but to no avail.

I feel the same frustration sometimes when talking with atheists - and vegetarians - and Democrats - and Republicans.