Multiple perspectives --a requirement for the perspectivist.Well that's just ridiculous (unless it isn't).
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Is it possible for you to do anything that God did not already know you would do?
- Thread starter Beaudreaux
- Start date
You hit the nail on the head which is what I have been trying to explain to you for 2 weeks now. God defies man's logic. Which is why man will never be able to understand Him only using logic.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
So god can make a rock so heavy he can't lift it?
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
No, no. I am saying that God canNOT defy logic. He cannot make a square circle or a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it. If we cannot use logic and reasoning to understand God, then this forum is pointless.
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
So...that's something he cannot do?
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
So god is bound by logic.
Draka
Wonder Woman
In regard to the OP I have to add a question for those who believe that there is omniscience AND free will at the same time.
Do you believe god created you?
If god created you AND that god knows everything you will ever do in your entire life, then it must follow that god created you with the intent that you do EXACTLY what you do. Therefore, you had no choice in the matter of what you do...for god created you with foreknowledge of every move and action you would take through your entire life. Totally throwing the concept of free will out the proverbial window. Furthermore, it would not make any sense whatsoever for such a god to punish or reward anyone. For why punish or reward mindless automatrons which were created and designed to do exactly what you wanted them to? That's like trying to punish a shredding machine for shredding paper. It is doing what it was designed to do and nothing else. If you are created by a god that knows everything you will ever do...then you were created to do everything you do and there is nothing that you do that would ever be against god's wishes.
I sure am glad my concept of Divine doesn't have these boulder-sized stumbling blocks. It is amusing to watch some people trip and fall all over themselves trying to reason away logic and common sense though and try to say that "god defies logic" and "man can't comprehend" and so on and so forth. They are merely lame excuses for belief in something that makes no sense.
Blinders on tight...ready...set...fumble in dark room of excuses...GO
Do you believe god created you?
If god created you AND that god knows everything you will ever do in your entire life, then it must follow that god created you with the intent that you do EXACTLY what you do. Therefore, you had no choice in the matter of what you do...for god created you with foreknowledge of every move and action you would take through your entire life. Totally throwing the concept of free will out the proverbial window. Furthermore, it would not make any sense whatsoever for such a god to punish or reward anyone. For why punish or reward mindless automatrons which were created and designed to do exactly what you wanted them to? That's like trying to punish a shredding machine for shredding paper. It is doing what it was designed to do and nothing else. If you are created by a god that knows everything you will ever do...then you were created to do everything you do and there is nothing that you do that would ever be against god's wishes.
I sure am glad my concept of Divine doesn't have these boulder-sized stumbling blocks. It is amusing to watch some people trip and fall all over themselves trying to reason away logic and common sense though and try to say that "god defies logic" and "man can't comprehend" and so on and so forth. They are merely lame excuses for belief in something that makes no sense.
Blinders on tight...ready...set...fumble in dark room of excuses...GO
That is a perk of infinite power and wisdom. He can do whatever He wants. Bend time, space, and reality to His will. Even my understanding of Gods power is a understatement for it.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
I think you misread.
Comicaze247
See the previous line
I haven't read the entire thread, but this just occurred to me.
"God" knows everything you're going to do, even before he makes you, correct?
So why would he make someone that he knows is going to go against his will? Why would he make someone he knows would forsake him and damn themselves to hell?
He knows exactly what you're going to do, and even if he doesn't like what you're going to do, he makes you anyway. Why is that? (*predicts the "I don't know, I don't know God" answers*)
Would that mean "God" himself doesn't have free will?
"God" knows everything you're going to do, even before he makes you, correct?
So why would he make someone that he knows is going to go against his will? Why would he make someone he knows would forsake him and damn themselves to hell?
He knows exactly what you're going to do, and even if he doesn't like what you're going to do, he makes you anyway. Why is that? (*predicts the "I don't know, I don't know God" answers*)
Would that mean "God" himself doesn't have free will?
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
Exactly! If the future is foreknown, then choice is nothing more than an illusion. Even Enoch admits that it is simply not possible to do anything other than what God has foreknown. If God is omniscient, then humans cannot possess free will.
Yes and no... God knows what you are going to do from our perspective, because you have already done it, or more accurately are currently doing it, from His... at least that is my opinion...
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
God has always existed, yes? Have we human beings also always existed? Are we eternal as well?
Our souls are eternal. We have not always existed though. Our souls were created long after the earth was already old, but only a couple thousand years before God established the Garden of Eden. (these are estimations there is no specific amount of time)
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Which part of your body do you pull this stuff out of?
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
Well, if God is older than us, then at SOME point we had to take actions of which he was already aware. That's why I think the "you already made the choice" argument doesn't work. Unless we are just as old as God, we took those actions with his foreknowledge. And since you have already agreed that it is impossible for us to do anything other than what God foreknew, we only had one course of action to take in any given situation. That is not choice. That is not free will.
Thats the flaw in your logic. We always have/had more than one course.
rageoftyrael
Veritas
No, his logic is sound. You simply disagree with his premise. You think that we have a choice, though if you say that god has omniscience, or even if anyone has it, it shows that fate exists, which means that everything is predetermined. Thus, no choices, no free will.