Is it possible for you to do anything that God did not already know you would do?

[fallenangel101]

There are several threads going on about omniscience and free will and I have asked this question in them all. To date, no one has answered. So, I am starting a thread dedicated to the question in the hopes that someone will have the intellectual integrity to respond honestly. The question is not loaded, leading or a trick question. It is straightforward and is properly answered with a "yes" or a "no" with follow up explanation welcome. The question is:

Is it possible for you to do ANYthing that God did not already know you would do?
​

I eagerly await responses.

answer: no.
at least, to the God you seem to be referring to.

 

[Draka]

Not quite like puppies. But yeah that is the point of life, is to exercise your free will. Some will continue to follow God some will go other ways. Obviously your the "other" type cause you feel like you should bow to no one. If that so, then so be it, its your choice. Free will in action.

So if you believe in free will then you must believe that god does NOT know everything we are going to do and every choice we are going to make. For, if he did, it wouldn't really be free will, it would be his will. Don't you see the argument here? Either god is omniscient and designed us with foreknowedge of all we do and therefore designed us to reject him and sin and do all we do, which makes no sense especially taking into account the whole punish and reward thing he seems to like to do, OR god is not omniscient and we have free will to do all those things I mentioned before. And for that he chooses to punish and reward.

Why must you insist on trying to believe there is both at the same time when there is simply no logical way there can be? And why is the mere idea of a god not being omniscient so abhorrent to you? You really honestly and truly cannot wrap your mind around this can you?

 

[Enoch07]

So if you believe in free will then you must believe that god does NOT know everything we are going to do and every choice we are going to make. For, if he did, it wouldn't really be free will, it would be his will. Don't you see the argument here? Either god is omniscient and designed us with foreknowedge of all we do and therefore designed us to reject him and sin and do all we do, which makes no sense especially taking into account the whole punish and reward thing he seems to like to do, OR god is not omniscient and we have free will to do all those things I mentioned before. And for that he chooses to punish and reward.

Why must you insist on trying to believe there is both at the same time when there is simply no logical way there can be? And why is the mere idea of a god not being omniscient so abhorrent to you? You really honestly and truly cannot wrap your mind around this can you?

Wrong Draka. Just because God can foresee your future does not mean He made the decisions for you. You are still responsible for your decisions. If you believe there is no free will and all will is Gods will, we would not even be having this discussion right now. Because God would force you into believing His every word. You would have no free thought at all.

 

[JMorris]

if god is omniscient, its not even certain if god has free will. Enoch, your just not getting it. if god can see the future, and CANT be wrong about that future. then how is that future not going to happen? if god KNOWS im gonna drink a coke and CANT be wrong. then how am i supposed to drink a pepsi? god even knows what im gonna think dosent he? so he knows how im gonna decide. so how about that pepsi?

 

[Draka]

Wrong Draka. Just because God can foresee your future does not mean He made the decisions for you. You are still responsible for your decisions. If you believe there is no free will and all will is Gods will, we would not even be having this discussion right now. Because God would force you into believing His every word. You would have no free thought at all.

That's exactly it Enoch. You just don't get it do you? If god were really omniscient AND god wanted us all to believe in him and not sin and not question anything, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. But we are. So we have free will. And god is not omniscient. Boy, you really do have those blinders on tight don't you?

 

[JMorris]

if god is omniscient, it kinda makes everything pointless. because if he knows you will sin, then you will. and vice versa

 

[Enoch07]

That's exactly it Enoch. You just don't get it do you? If god were really omniscient AND god wanted us all to believe in him and not sin and not question anything, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. But we are. So we have free will. And god is not omniscient. Boy, you really do have those blinders on tight don't you?

God being able to know the future has no effect on free will. You are talking about 2 totally separate aspects. Your future is gonna be whatever it is because of the decisions you make, God does not make those decisions for you. If there was no free will, and God controlled everything like you said. You would not be a wiccan. You would be a Christian. Why would God make you worship anything but Him? That is the craziest thing I have ever heard. So explain to me what proof you have God is not omniscient.

 

[Draka]

if god is omniscient, it kinda makes everything pointless. because if he knows you will sin, then you will. and vice versa

Yeah. He not only knows you will sin, but created you with the foreknowedge you would sin and then turns around and punishes you for sinning. Real nice god there. :sarcastic Why even bother creating people he already knows he is going to punish? I mean really? Why? :areyoucra

 

[JMorris]

God being able to know the future has no effect on free will. You are talking about 2 totally separate aspects. Your future is gonna be whatever it is because of the decisions you make, God does not make those decisions for you. If there was no free will, and God controlled everything like you said. You would not be a wiccan. You would be a Christian. Why would God make you worship anything but Him? That is the craziest thing I have ever heard. So explain to me what proof you have God is not omniscient.

assuming christianity is right........ but yea, their not 2 seperate things. you are just unwilling to see the connection. i dont know why there is anymore need to re-explain this over and over. going in circles. free will is impossible if the future is set in stone. if god knows the future, and cant be wrong, then the future is set in stone.

 

[JMorris]

Yeah. He not only knows you will sin, but created you with the foreknowedge you would sin and then turns around and punishes you for sinning. Real nice god there. :sarcastic Why even bother creating people he already knows he is going to punish? I mean really? Why? :areyoucra

well, does he have any choice under the circumstance? if he knows what your gonna do, before your even created, then at some point you must obviously be created to commit the sin. does god control the future as he knows it, or does he simply know it?

 

[Draka]

God being able to know the future has no effect on free will. You are talking about 2 totally separate aspects. Your future is gonna be whatever it is because of the decisions you make, God does not make those decisions for you. If there was no free will, and God controlled everything like you said. You would not be a wiccan. You would be a Christian. Why would God make you worship anything but Him? That is the craziest thing I have ever heard. So explain to me what proof you have God is not omniscient.

Because...I AM A WICCAN! If your god existed, and was omniscient, then he would have created me KNOWING that I would become a Wiccan...which goes against what he wants...which is everyone to follow him. Now...WHY would a being that knows my choices before I make them make me in the first place if he knew I was going to reject him when he supposedly wants everyone to accept him??? My goodness, do you really and truly NOT UNDERSTAND this? Honestly WHY is this so hard to get for you? Do you have this much troulbe with 2+2=4? :areyoucra:areyoucra:areyoucra

 

[Enoch07]

Yeah. He not only knows you will sin, but created you with the foreknowedge you would sin and then turns around and punishes you for sinning. Real nice god there. :sarcastic Why even bother creating people he already knows he is going to punish? I mean really? Why? :areyoucra

Of course we all sin. That's a no brainer. Don't need to be able to see the future to know that. Sin can be washed away though, that is why Jesus came to us. God did not create you as a wiccan you chose that of your own free will Draka. You say God created you to worship another religion? How logical does that sound? You chose that religion because it best suited your needs and you know it.

 

[JMorris]

i was never saying that god chooses your choices. he simply knows what your going to do. its a passive power for him. but if he knows, and cant be wrong, then you cant do otherwise. if god knows what he's gonna do in the future, can god do otherwise? imagine satan, did god create him knowing what satan would do? if so god condemned him to hell and is the source of all evil. but if god didnt choose what satan would do, or even if he'd be created, the future was set by his knowledge of it.

 

[Draka]

well, does he have any choice under the circumstance? if he knows what your gonna do, before your even created, then at some point you must obviously be created to commit the sin. does god control the future as he knows it, or does he simply know it?

So, under this line of thought, god has no choice but to make me to reject him? If god has no choice, then is he truly god? And who's directing him to make people that reject him? He says there is no other god but him, but if that is so then there would be no other controlling him and making him make people to reject him. Was he told to make up that bit about there being no other god? See, the first part is really the point though, If god knows what you are going to do before you do it then he must have created you to do it and that includes sinning. doesn't logically make sense for a god that supposedly says we shouldn't sin does it?

 

[JMorris]

Of course we all sin. That's a no brainer. Don't need to be able to see the future to know that. Sin can be washed away though, that is why Jesus came to us. God did not create you as a wiccan you chose that of your own free will Draka. You say God created you to worship another religion? How logical does that sound? You chose that religion because it best suited your needs and you know it.

are you unaware of the things you say? you said god created us to worship him and him alone. if christianity is the only correct religion as you've said, then he created us to be christians

 

[Draka]

Of course we all sin. That's a no brainer. Don't need to be able to see the future to know that. Sin can be washed away though, that is why Jesus came to us. God did not create you as a wiccan you chose that of your own free will Draka. You say God created you to worship another religion? How logical does that sound? You chose that religion because it best suited your needs and you know it.

First, I didn't "choose" the religion because it suited my "needs", I found and accepted it because it made sense and was mainly what I had already come to believe before even finding it.

Second...that's the point Enoch...it's NOT logical. If the god you believe in knows the future, and creates souls and people and whatnot, then that god creates people to reject him. And THAT doesn't make sense. That is the FLAW of your belief of your god. I swear this is like talking to a wall.

 

[Enoch07]

are you unaware of the things you say? you said god created us to worship him and him alone. if christianity is the only correct religion as you've said, then he created us to be christians

Yes and if there was no such thing as free will you would have no choice but to be a Christian.

 

[JMorris]

So, under this line of thought, god has no choice but to make me to reject him? If god has no choice, then is he truly god? And who's directing him to make people that reject him? He says there is no other god but him, but if that is so then there would be no other controlling him and making him make people to reject him. Was he told to make up that bit about there being no other god? See, the first part is really the point though, If god knows what you are going to do before you do it then he must have created you to do it and that includes sinning. doesn't logically make sense for a god that supposedly says we shouldn't sin does it?

thats sorta the point, the massive amount of logical inconsistancies proves the christian god dosent exist. i wasnt saying anyone controled god, just that he didnt choose the future, he simply knew it. and if he cant choose the future, but cant be wrong about what he knows, then he cant even choose what he does, much less us. does that make sense (it does inside my own head, but i might not be explaining it correctly) in other words, an omniscient god creates so much contradictions that it couldnt possibly be real

 

[JMorris]

Yes and if there was no such thing as free will you would have no choice but to be a Christian.

if i do have free will, then your god dosent exist, because he isnt omniscient

 

[Draka]

if i do have free will, then your god dosent exist, because he isnt omniscient

I think we can say this to him several times a day, everyday, for the rest of his life, and he still won't get it.