Is it possible for you to do anything that God did not already know you would do?

[rageoftyrael]

Everything must run on chance, random if you will. If everything is not random, if anything is foreseen, than there is no true freewill, only the seeming of it. In other words, if everything isn't random, if fate exists, we may think we are making choices, but we aren't, because it is already decided via fate, that we will make a certain choice. So, essentially, as far as i can tell, if you believe in fate, it is illogical to believe in free will.

 

[Enoch07]

No, his logic is sound. You simply disagree with his premise. You think that we have a choice, though if you say that god has omniscience, or even if anyone has it, it shows that fate exists, which means that everything is predetermined. Thus, no choices, no free will.

Wrong. Because free will allows you to control what your fate will be. Just because you was born poor does not mean you will always be poor or die poor. You control your own fate.

 

[Comicaze247]

Wrong. Because free will allows you to control what your fate will be. Just because you was born poor does not mean you will always be poor or die poor. You control your own fate.

. . . That has NOTHING to do with the argument . . .

 

[JMorris]

. . . That has NOTHING to do with the argument . . .

i guess Enoch has a different definition of fate than the rest of the world.....

 

[Enoch07]

No. Using it as an example. Obviously it fails to register with you. Oh well.

Fate = Destiny referred exclusively to a predetermined course of events. It was therefore conceived of as a predetermined future, whether in general or of an individual. It was a concept based on the belief that there is a fixed natural order to the universe. In modern philosophy such concept has become inadequate, because from Nietzsche and later Heidegger the means of the term destiny enters a new sense as voluntary acceptance—choice of my own course of life. In other words: I and my life have the same identity in the philosophy of existentialism. From Wikipedia

Your saying that because God can see the future your fate is predetermined. Who determines that fate? God is not in control of you. You are. If God controlled you everyone would be Christian and no one would be allowed to have their own opinions. You control your own life and are responsible for your own fate. Free Will

 

[JMorris]

if fate is not determined then how can god see the future and have that future come true?

 

[Katzpur]

1. If god is omniscient, he will know everything that will happen.
2. He then, in turn, gives humans free will.
3. He knows that, with his omniscience, how humans will use their free will.
4. Logically, humans can NOT use their free will to make a decision other than what the god already knows humans will decide.
5. Thus, humans don't have control over their decisions.

So, logically, one of the following must be true:

A. Humans do NOT have free will
B. God is not omniscient
C. There is no god.

I don't get it. How is a person's choice in any way tied to God's knowledge?

I have two dogs. They love steak. I know them both very well -- not perfectly, but very well. If I leave a couple of big, juicy steaks out in their bowls and walk out of the room, I can be about 99.9999% sure that if I'm away for more than a couple of minutes, those steaks will be gone when I come back. Since there is that .0001% chance that I'll be wrong and the steaks will still be sitting there when I get back, I wouldn't call myself omniscient.

God, on the other hand, knows for sure how I'm going to respond in any given situation. He knows, not because he sees the future per se, but because He knows me perfectly. He is 100% sure of what I'm going to do, not just 99.9999% sure. Either way, how is my dogs' choice to eat the steaks or my choice to return the extra change the clerk gave me at the store controlled by someone else's knowledge of what that choice will be. My dogs' choice to eat the steaks or leave them untouched will be the same whether I can accurately predict it or not. My choice to return the extra change will be the same whether God can accurately predict it or not.

 

[JMorris]

I don't get it. How is a person's choice in any way tied to God's knowledge?

I have two dogs. They love steak. I know them both very well -- not perfectly, but very well. If I leave a couple of big, juicy steaks out in their bowls and walk out of the room, I can be about 99.9999% sure that if I'm gone for more than a couple of minutes, those steaks will be gone when I come back. Since there is that .0001% chance that I'll be wrong and the steaks will still be sitting there when I get back, I wouldn't call myself omniscient.

God, on the other hand, knows for sure how I'm going to respond in any given situation. He knows, not because he sees the future per se, but because He knows me perfectly. He is 100% sure of what I'm going to do, not just 99.9999% sure. Either way, how is my dogs' choice to eat the steaks or my choice to return the extra change the clerk gave me at the store controlled by someone else's knowledge of what that choice will be. My dogs' choice to eat the steaks or leave them untouched will be the same whether I can accurately predict it or not. My choice to return the extra change will be the same whether God can accurately predict it or not.

well thats different......and makes sense. if god is only predicting what we will do based on his knowledge of us, then free will is possible i think. but the problem was if god knew the future for certain. set in stone, in which case the future couldnt deviate and go a different direction.

 

[Enoch07]

if fate is not determined then how can god see the future and have that future come true?

God does not make that future come true. Only thing He has done is seen the outcome of the paths you take in life. You are still the one making the decisions. Trust me if there was no free will God would have made everyone be Christian, no one would disagree, there would be no gay people, there would be no originality, no free thought, and life would have been boring and pointless, and we would not be able to even have this conversation. Free Will gives us the power to determine our own fate. The purpose of life is how you use that power.

 

[Katzpur]

well thats different......and makes sense. if god is only predicting what we will do based on his knowledge of us, then free will is possible i think. but the problem was if god knew the future for certain. set in stone, in which case the future couldnt deviate and go a different direction.

That's probably why you don't hear the LDS use words like "omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent." They're philosophical terms and raise more questions than they answer.

 

[JMorris]

God does not make that future come true. Only thing He has done is seen the outcome of the paths you take in life. You are still the one making the decisions. Trust me if there was no free will God would have made everyone be Christian, no one would disagree, there would be no gay people, there would be no originality, no free thought, and life would have been boring and pointless, and we would not be able to even have this conversation. Free Will gives us the power to determine our own fate. The purpose of life is how you use that power.

are you saying a would full of christians would be like this? "there would be no gay people, there would be no originality, no free thought, and life would have been boring and pointless"

 

[Enoch07]

No that is what the world would be like God took away free will and controlled everyone.

 

[JMorris]

but that is how god wants us to be? you said thats what the world would be like if god forced us all to be christian. so i must imagine thats what the world would be like if we all chose to be christian.

 

[Enoch07]

Yah God wants us all to love Him, and obey His laws as best we can (By being a Christian). He knows its not going to happen cause some people are stubborn and just do whatever they want to do. Which is just another example of free will.

 

[JMorris]

so god does indeed want us to be "there would be no gay people, there would be no originality, no free thought, and life would have been boring and pointless"
but dosent want to force us..........self imposed restriction on free will, yuck

 

[Mister Emu]

God has always existed, yes? Have we human beings also always existed? Are we eternal as well?

Yes. No. No.

Well, if God is older than us, then at SOME point we had to take actions of which he was already aware. That's why I think the "you already made the choice" argument doesn't work.

You don't understand what I'm saying... He knows what we will do from our perspective, because He is in the future at the same time seeing us do what from our perspective we have yet to come to...

 

[Enoch07]

Exactly that is the point of free will. He wants your love given to Him of your own free will. If there was no free will there would be no purpose for us here on earth.

 

[JMorris]

Exactly that is the point of free will. He wants your love given to Him of your own free will. If there was no free will there would be no purpose for us here on earth.

so he gave us free will so we could choose to disregard it and follow at his feet like adoring puppies? god seems a tad crazy. kinda makes god sound like.......a self centered celebrity

 

[Enoch07]

Not quite like puppies. But yeah that is the point of life, is to exercise your free will. Some will continue to follow God some will go other ways. Obviously your the "other" type cause you feel like you should bow to no one. If that so, then so be it, its your choice. Free will in action.

 

[JMorris]

well, why should i bow to anyone?