Is it possible for you to do anything that God did not already know you would do?

[meogi]

Your problem is your use of tenses. Of course, knowledge of an event does not influence how it WAS achieved. But we are not talking about that kind of knowledge. We are talking about absolute knowledge of how something WILL happen.

Define it any way you want; knowledge of HOW something WILL happen has zero influence on that which is actually making the decision. God isn't making the choice for you, simply by knowing the choice you'll make.

If God knows today what you will do tomorrow, then that's what you will do. It may FEEL like you are choosing your actions yourself, but you cannot choose to do anything that God did not already foreknow.

But did he fore-decide it for you?

 

[rageoftyrael]

But did he fore-decide it for you?[/QUOTE]

That isn't the question. Free will does not exist if anyone or anything can know the future. Whether he decides or doesn't, if he knows what will happen, then free will is an illusion. Thinking you made a decision means nothing if that decision was guaranteed to happen. Having made that decision is an illusion if there was never any other way it could go. It doesn't mean that the being that knows the future decided it, it just means that they know it.

 

[Enoch07]

That isn't the question. Free will does not exist if anyone or anything can know the future. Whether he decides or doesn't, if he knows what will happen, then free will is an illusion. Thinking you made a decision means nothing if that decision was guaranteed to happen. Having made that decision is an illusion if there was never any other way it could go. It doesn't mean that the being that knows the future decided it, it just means that they know it.

The thing is. You are still responsible for the decision. You made it/ make it everyday. God did not make it for you. The decision is not guaranteed to happen because God foresaw it. It is guaranteed to happen because that is the decision you will make.

 

[Comicaze247]

So... to clarify... were I correct, that you have already freely made decisions which you have yet to come to means that you have not freely made decisions?

It made more sense in my head earlier

Interesting... Being a writer, you'd be surprised Though I understand the point your making...

Oh yeah, I've written my own short stories, so I know what you mean

But there is no character... only you... and if you decide what you will feel and what you will think and what you will do, you cannot argue that you did not decide...

But what you're suggesting is that you write out your whole life before you live it. I just don't think that concept is possible, as, for one thing, nothing ever turns out exactly how you plan.

Interesting... so when does it get negated? Has it always been negated? Was it negated when I developed time travel? When I decided(or not as it were, since time travel negates free will) to travel to that specific time?

It's negated the moment it passes. Once the moment passes, you've made your decision at that point in time. You can't go back and change that decision. Whether or not you go back to that point in time to observe yourself, the decision was already made. You wrote the word, you go back only to read it, that word can't change.

Why? Why does the fact that I know what they will do, more correctly have already done, make free will not an option?

Because the moment has passed. I no longer have the free will to take a sip of my Pepsi before typing this sentence, because the decision to do so has already passed. The past me can't change what has already passed.

 

[Comicaze247]

The thing is. You are still responsible for the decision. You made it/ make it everyday. God did not make it for you. The decision is not guaranteed to happen because God foresaw it. It is guaranteed to happen because that is the decision you will make.

If "God" knows what we ARE FOR SURE going to do, and he CAN'T be wrong, then our futures are set in stone, meaning NO FREE WILL. If this were the case, the only possible way we'd be able to actually have free will would be for him to tell us what path our current choices will take us down. But then that would negate his omniscience.

 

[JMorris]

The thing is. You are still responsible for the decision. You made it/ make it everyday. God did not make it for you. The decision is not guaranteed to happen because God foresaw it. It is guaranteed to happen because that is the decision you will make.

why are you still trying? your saying the SAME thing AGAIN. it makes NO sense. if it is not guaranteed to happen because god forsaw it, then god can be wrong about what he for-sees. what happened in the past got you where you are in the present. the present gets you where you are in the future. if the future is knowable then what is known to happen in the future will happen. you cant escape it, because it is the future. it dosent matter if i make what looks like a "choice" because the fact the future existed means prior to making the "choice" then you can do nothing but make that choice. because it was the FUTURE.

 

[rageoftyrael]

Hey, i'm not saying i'm not responsible for my actions. I'm not acting like this is some kind of cop out to justify my bad decisions. The point is that the decisions aren't even actually mine, if fate exists. The hilarious thing is that logically if fate exists, and the decisions aren't mine, then i could very easily justify every bad action, but i don't because that is bull. Makes sense to me.

 

[Enoch07]

Hey, i'm not saying i'm not responsible for my actions. I'm not acting like this is some kind of cop out to justify my bad decisions. The point is that the decisions aren't even actually mine, if fate exists. The hilarious thing is that logically if fate exists, and the decisions aren't mine, then i could very easily justify every bad action, but i don't because that is bull. Makes sense to me.

Hmm well then if you run your logic in reverse. Bull = justifying sin = fate = no free will. So logically you agree that no free will = bull. hehe I know thats not what you are saying but just thought I would point that out.

 

[JMorris]

enoch is saying we are trying to not take responsibility for our actions as a cop out. he seems to think that simply because we can clearly see that omniscience negates free will, that we're trying to not take responsibility. he has nothing to say himself, so he is trying to insult our reasoning based on a selfish need not to take responisibility. we all take responisbility for our actions. but if the future is set in stone, then what will happen will happen.

 

[Comicaze247]

Define it any way you want; knowledge of HOW something WILL happen has zero influence on that which is actually making the decision. God isn't making the choice for you, simply by knowing the choice you'll make.

But did he fore-decide it for you?

Supposedly "God" makes you who you are. He designs you. He knows you in and out, how you think, what you'll think, what you'll feel in any situation.
In a sense, he's programmed you. If you have been programmed by someone who engineers the way you think, and, because of his "divine plan," what you'll experience, how can you say that we make our own decisions?
Who's to say that he didn't make you the way he made you just so that you could do what he wanted you to do?
Now, I really don't think that we don't have free will, which is why I came to the conclusion that an "omniscient God" doesn't exist. Maybe there is a conscious divine figure, but I don't believe they'd be omniscient.

 

[JMorris]

Hmm well then if you run your logic in reverse. Bull = justifying sin = fate = no free will. So logically you agree that no free will = bull. hehe I know thats not what you are saying but just thought I would point that out.

you run your logic on empty. we take responsibility for our actions because there is free will. we have free will because the future is not knowable. the future is not knowable because there is not a omniscient god (or person).
free will=an unknowable future=no omniscient god

 

[Comicaze247]

you run your logic on empty. we take responsibility for our actions because there is free will. we have free will because the future is not knowable. the future is not knowable because there is not a omniscient god (or person).
free will=an unknowable future=no omniscient god

I think he is running under the belief that we are arguing that there is no free will. We're saying that "free will" and an "omniscient God" are mutually exclusive, so he's assuming we're denying free will, because apparently denying that "God" exists must be unthinkable.

 

[rageoftyrael]

Really? Dude, you always twist what i say into incomprehendible nonsense. Respond to what i actually say. Also, i can't be a hundred percent sure on this, but i don't think that you can just reverse what someone says, it probably wouldn't make sense. And yes, i agree that no free will equals bull. I think we have free will, i just don't think that free will and fate can coexist. So, if there is a god, and we have free will, then he probably isn't omniscient. That is basically what i'm saying.

 

[JMorris]

Really? Dude, you always twist what i say into incomprehendible nonsense. Respond to what i actually say. Also, i can't be a hundred percent sure on this, but i don't think that you can just reverse what someone says, it probably wouldn't make sense. And yes, i agree that no free will equals bull. I think we have free will, i just don't think that free will and fate can coexist. So, if there is a god, and we have free will, then he probably isn't omniscient. That is basically what i'm saying.

well thats what Enoch does. but god or no god, im not 100% we have free will, im rather agnostic about that. an omniscient god would make it impossible. but im not sure about the linearity of time, or if all times exist at the same time or not. of course theres no way to prove that either way (as far as i know, maybe im wrong) thats why im agnostic about it. it certainly does seem like we have free will, we probably do. which means than an omniscient god proabably dosent exist.

 

[Enoch07]

Really? Dude, you always twist what i say into incomprehendible nonsense. Respond to what i actually say. Also, i can't be a hundred percent sure on this, but i don't think that you can just reverse what someone says, it probably wouldn't make sense. And yes, i agree that no free will equals bull. I think we have free will, i just don't think that free will and fate can coexist. So, if there is a god, and we have free will, then he probably isn't omniscient. That is basically what i'm saying.

haha I even stated that I knew that is not what you saying. Was more or less messing with ya. :angel2:

 

[rageoftyrael]

that's cool, didn't mean to jump down your throat. And yeah, jmorris, i don't actually assert any belief that we have free will, just wishful thinking you know?

 

[JMorris]

that's cool, didn't mean to jump down your throat. And yeah, jmorris, i don't actually assert any belief that we have free will, just wishful thinking you know?

yea i get ya
tho for me personally, im not sure i really care either way, there are pro and cons to either side.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Define it any way you want; knowledge of HOW something WILL happen has zero influence on that which is actually making the decision.

It is not knowledge of HOW something happens. It is knowledge of exactly WHAT will happen. If God knows what will happen, then that, and nothing else, is what haas to happen.

God isn't making the choice for you, simply by knowing the choice you'll make.

But did he fore-decide it for you?

Doesn't matter. If God knows what you will do, then that's what you're going to do. I understand that it really feels like a free choice to you, but it cannot be.

Let's regroup by addressing the question this thread is all about. Please tell me, is it possible for you to do anything that God did not already know you would do?

 

[Beaudreaux]

The decision is not guaranteed to happen because God foresaw it. It is guaranteed to happen because that is the decision you will make.

EXACTLY!!! NOW you're starting to get it. That IS the decision you will make and it IS guaranteed. It is not possible for you to make any other.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The wheels on the short-bus go round and round...