Is it possible for you to do anything that God did not already know you would do?

[Gharib]

If that is so, then god would know everything and every decision we would make in our lives before we are even born. That being the case, then he couldn't exactly punish us for anything we do since he's the one who supposedly created us in the first place. If he created, or at least allowed someone to be born, that he knew was going to murder, rape, steal, "reject god", be homosexual, commit adultery, or whatever he considers to be sins, then he is just as guilty of the sins as that person is...more so actually since he knew it was going to happen before even they did.

ah the good example of free will huh.

well let me tell you, god does know the future and every move of ours. but still he has given us free will, heres how it works;

god has written;
"Draka will become a serial killer if she starts to use weapons, is she starts taking drugs and hangs out with gangs etc...."

he has also written;
"Draka will be a good person who helps the needy if she doesn't do drugs, doesn't go into gangs, starts to care about other peoples feelings etc..."


meaning you have been given the freedom of choice or FREE WILL to chose who or what you wish to be. is it difficult to understand?

 

[Draka]

ah the good example of free will huh.

well let me tell you, god does know the future and every move of ours. but still he has given us free will, heres how it works;

god has written;
"Draka will become a serial killer if she starts to use weapons, is she starts taking drugs and hangs out with gangs etc...."

he has also written;
"Draka will be a good person who helps the needy if she doesn't do drugs, doesn't go into gangs, starts to care about other peoples feelings etc..."


meaning you have been given the freedom of choice or FREE WILL to chose who or what you wish to be. is it difficult to understand?

Ah, but god already knows the choices I would make before I made them. So he would know before I did if I was going to make the choices that led me down the path of a serial murderer. Therefore he is just as guilty of the murders as he is the one who brought me, the person he already knew wouuld kill, into the world. In fact, we could say he is entirely guilty and I was just his weapon of choice to commit said crimes.

If one holds that god knows everything we are going to do before we do it then everything we do is intended by god to happen or he wouldn't have even allowed us to exist in the first place. One would have to realize that if god knows our actions and deeds before we do then he created us with the intention that we do what we do and there is no such thing as free will. One cannot have free will if one is created by someone with the foreknowledge of everything we are going to do anyway.

 

[doppelganger]

Slightly off topic, but the "free will" solution to the problem of evil in traditional theology was squashed pretty well by Dostoevsky in The Brothers Karamazov.

THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV by Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky

 

[Gharib]

Ah, but god already knows the choices I would make before I made them. So he would know before I did if I was going to make the choices that led me down the path of a serial murderer. Therefore he is just as guilty of the murders as he is the one who brought me, the person he already knew wouuld kill, into the world. In fact, we could say he is entirely guilty and I was just his weapon of choice to commit said crimes.

i did ask you if you understood it, and clearly you haven't.

you have the choice to choose, thats like a teacher giving out exam papers to the students, he knows that there is only one answer to a particular question, he knows that those students who have studied will get that answer and he know that others who haven't wont. he knows who are the best kids and who aren't, who have the capability to do it and who don't. so is the exam rigged in any way, should the teacher be punished for it?

If one holds that god knows everything we are going to do before we do it then everything we do is intended by god to happen or he wouldn't have even allowed us to exist in the first place.

so according to you, we just live life how it comes to us. we make the decissions. so if we make the decissions then why are there bad people in the wolrd? why are the poor and rich people in the world? why do some die sonner than the others? why do es a younger man die before an older man?

One would have to realize that if god knows our actions and deeds before we do then he created us with the intention that we do what we do and there is no such thing as free will.

gods soul purpose for creating us is to obey him, override our will with his, so how can we not have free will if we clearly aren't obeying that of god? we do what we want, thats the difference, it is the animals who don't have free will, see how they obey us, whereas there are humans who don't obey god.

One cannot have free will if one is created by someone with the foreknowledge of everything we are going to do anyway.

so how can that be impossible, when god created us from nothing. which is more impossible to you

having free will although god knows the whole future
OR
being created by a supreme being who knows nothing?

 

[Beaudreaux]

i did ask you if you understood it, and clearly you haven't.

you have the choice to choose, thats like a teacher giving out exam papers to the students, he knows that there is only one answer to a particular question, he knows that those students who have studied will get that answer and he know that others who haven't wont. he knows who are the best kids and who aren't, who have the capability to do it and who don't. so is the exam rigged in any way, should the teacher be punished for it?



so according to you, we just live life how it comes to us. we make the decissions. so if we make the decissions then why are there bad people in the wolrd? why are the poor and rich people in the world? why do some die sonner than the others? why do es a younger man die before an older man?



gods soul purpose for creating us is to obey him, override our will with his, so how can we not have free will if we clearly aren't obeying that of god? we do what we want, thats the difference, it is the animals who don't have free will, see how they obey us, whereas there are humans who don't obey god.



so how can that be impossible, when god created us from nothing. which is more impossible to you

having free will although god knows the whole future
OR
being created by a supreme being who knows nothing?

Esalam,

Free will is impossible with omniscience. The reason for this is the answer you provided to the question in the OP. Your earlier post:

no you cannot do anything that god doesn't already know.

if that happened, then there would be no god. god sees the future and the past, if something gets past him, then he is not a god.

In any given situation, "you cannot do anything that god doesn't already know." That means the ONLY thing you can do in any given situation is the thing God knows you will do. In other words, in any given situation, you can only take one action, and how can there be a choice when you only have one option?

 

[Gharib]

Esalam,

Free will is impossible with omniscience. The reason for this is the answer you provided to the question in the OP. Your earlier post:

In any given situation, "you cannot do anything that god doesn't already know." That means the ONLY thing you can do in any given situation is the thing God knows you will do. In other words, in any given situation, you can only take one action, and how can there be a choice when you only have one option?

you have 2 options, that verifies free will, be good or be bad. god doesn't interffere, you choose.

you think we don't have free will i think we do, see to options to choose, meaning there is free will.

 

[Beaudreaux]

you have 2 options, that verifies free will, be good or be bad. god doesn't interffere, you choose.

you think we don't have free will i think we do, see to options to choose, meaning there is free will.

You do not have two options. Remember, it is impossible for you to do anything that God did not already foreknow. If something is impossible for you to do, it is not an option.

 

[Gharib]

You do not have two options. Remember, it is impossible for you to do anything that God did not already foreknow. If something is impossible for you to do, it is not an option.

well it is not impossible for me to say right now that there is no free will, so how can that not be an option, it makes 2 again. so there is free will. i can choose either of them so can you. if there are 2 or more outcomes that means free will exists.

 

[rageoftyrael]

To answer his question though, i would pick having free will while having an omniscient god. I can believe that there is a being who is just winging it. Why not, we were supposedly made in his image, and as far as we know, we're winging it, right? Seems logical to me.

And honestly, you aren't proving your point, you seem to be getting annoyed that she isn't "getting it" fast enough. Maybe you aren't "getting it"! I want a step by step answer as to how it is possible for a being who knows everything that was, is and will be to exist and yet i have free will? It is simple, if fate exists, free will does not.

Heck, even slow people have figured that out, in the matrix they asked neo, what do you believe in? He said he doesn't believe in fate cause he likes the idea of being able to make his own decisions in life.

But if there is no fate, there is no omniscient god. They go hand in hand. HECK, if you really think about it, if fate exists, fate IS god.

If fate is true, so be it, i'm not afraid of it, and believe it or not, we aren't desperate for fate to be the case so we can be like, "well, it is fated, so whatever i do isn't my fault" technically true, but most of us are morally sound enough not to use such an argument.

Even if you could prove fate as an absolute to me, i would still live my life in a good way, even though at that point i wouldn't have to, of course, if fate existed, that would simply be my fate. Twisted, eh?

 

[rageoftyrael]

eselam, could you reword the last thing you wrote? it made no sense to me whatsoever.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

well it is not impossible for me to say right now that there is no free will, so how can that not be an option, it makes 2 again. so there is free will. i can choose either of them so can you. if there are 2 or more outcomes that means free will exists.

The intrinic constraints, defined via the inherent framework of conditional circular reasoning, exclude the implied duality regarding the accepted thought parameters. This results in a uniform logical consistency, statistically speaking, in opposition to the objective, measurable variables agreed upon.

 

[Draka]

Quite simply, god cannot be everything. If god is omniscient AND we have free will then you have to believe that god did not create us, for if he did then that would mean he created us with the knowledge of any evil we would do. If you believe that god is omniscient AND we have free will then not only did god not create us, but he is not omnipotent either. For if he were then he would be able to stop the atrocities he knows we are going to commit. For if he were omnipotent AND he knows what evil we are going to do AND he doesn't stop it...then he is, at the least, allowing the evil to happen and that would mean that god is NOT good. In fact, it would make him quite jaded and maleficent.

Simply, if you want to claim that god is omniscient AND we have free will then god is either a powerless seer that can do nothing about what it sees, OR god is a cruel designer of all the evil and troubles of the world.

 

[Catadiotric]

If fate is true, so be it, i'm not afraid of it, and believe it or not, we aren't desperate for fate to be the case so we can be like, "well, it is fated, so whatever i do isn't my fault" technically true, but most of us are morally sound enough not to use such an argument.

Even if you could prove fate as an absolute to me, i would still live my life in a good way, even though at that point i wouldn't have to, of course, if fate existed, that would simply be my fate. Twisted, eh?

If fate is absolute to you, you could be definition live in no other way than how you live. Morality is based around choosing to do good and not bad. Once free choice leaves, so does morality. Good and bad lose meaning, so you would not be living your life in a good way, you would just be living it.

Realize that not having free will means not have responsibility for ones own actions. Do any of us, when we really ask ourselves, think think that we aren't responsible for what we do?

Does this mean that God, if he created free will and is omniscent, created the world knowing people would do evil things? Yep. Does it mean God does not intervene to prevent the evil he sees? Yep, I'd say the vast majority of the time this is true too. This is the cost of free will.

But people without will cannot love. People without free will cannot do good. I think the benefits outweigh the costs.

 

[Beaudreaux]

If fate is absolute to you, you could be definition live in no other way than how you live. Morality is based around choosing to do good and not bad. Once free choice leaves, so does morality. Good and bad lose meaning, so you would not be living your life in a good way, you would just be living it.

You are right. That is what omniscience entails. God knows who will be a good person and who will be a bad person. If God knows you will live a good life, then that's what you will do. It is a mistake to say that you "chose" to be good. It is impossible for you to be anything else.

Realize that not having free will means not have responsibility for ones own actions. Do any of us, when we really ask ourselves, think think that we aren't responsible for what we do?

If God is omniscient, how can you be? You are living the life God has preknown. It certainly isn't your fault.

Does this mean that God, if he created free will and is omniscent, created the world knowing people would do evil things?

You proceed from a faulty premise. If God is omniscient then he did not create free will.

Yep. Does it mean God does not intervene to prevent the evil he sees? Yep, I'd say the vast majority of the time this is true too. This is the cost of free will.

But people without will cannot love. People without free will cannot do good. I think the benefits outweigh the costs.

We are not doing a cost/benefit analysis of free will. We are understanding that omniscience means free will cannot exist. As the title of this thread states, if you believe God knows everything, then it is not possible for you to do anything that God did not already foreknow. It is not possible for you to have a "choice". You can only do what God knows you will do.

 

[Catadiotric]

You are right. That is what omniscience entails. God knows who will be a good person and who will be a bad person. If God knows you will live a good life, then that's what you will do. It is a mistake to say that you "chose" to be good. It is impossible for you to be anything else.

This is exactly my point. The argument most people in favor of there not being free will are using is:

God is omniscent
God creates "free will"
All actions as a result of free will are already known by God.
Therefore all actions chosen may only be the choice known by god, 1 choice.
Therefore there is no free will

Correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm bad at explaining things and don't want to use a strawman argument.

I'm creating a counterarguement that basically goes like this:

People have some amount of morality.
Morality requires free will
Therefore free will exists.

 

[doppelganger]

People have some amount of morality.
Morality requires free will
Therefore free will exists.

There's some incidental truth to that, with which Nietzsche would have agreed I think, though he gets there by a rather different path:

The error of free will. Today we no longer have any tolerance for the idea of "free will": we see it only too clearly for what it really is — the foulest of all theological fictions, intended to make mankind "responsible" in a religious sense — that is, dependent upon priests. Here I simply analyze the psychological assumptions behind any attempt at "making responsible."

Whenever responsibility is assigned, it is usually so that judgment and punishment may follow. Becoming has been deprived of its innocence when any acting-the-way-you-did is traced back to will, to motives, to responsible choices: the doctrine of the will has been invented essentially to justify punishment through the pretext of assigning guilt. All primitive psychology, the psychology of will, arises from the fact that its interpreters, the priests at the head of ancient communities, wanted to create for themselves the right to punish — or wanted to create this right for their God. Men were considered "free" only so that they might be considered guilty — could be judged and punished: consequently, every act had to be considered as willed, and the origin of every act had to be considered as lying within the consciousness (and thus the most fundamental psychological deception was made the principle of psychology itself).

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Nothing and no-one is omniscient. Only you decide what happens.

 

[lunamoth]

I'm creating a counterarguement that basically goes like this:

People have some amount of morality.
Morality requires free will
Therefore free will exists.

I think I get what you are saying.

What I am wondering is whether there is any way that free will could arise from nature.

 

[doppelganger]

I think I get what you are saying.

What I am wondering is whether there is any way that free will could arise from nature.

Isn't that an oxymoron?

 

[lunamoth]

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Not sure, maybe that is my question. There are atheists who believe they have free will.