Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
No, that's an excellent summary.
I agree with your argument, however it makes an omniscient God impossible.
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Is it possible for you to do anything that God did not already know you would do?
- Thread starter Beaudreaux
- Start date
lunamoth
Will to love
Beau, do you believe you have free will?
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Yes, and that's an oxymoron, too. :cover:Not sure, maybe that is my question. There are atheists who believe they have free will.
JMorris
Democratic Socialist
we have free will because there is no omniscient god. if there is an omniscient god, then free will is impossible.
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Do you believe that things occur that do not have any natural causes? In other words, do you believe in supernatural events?
JMorris
Democratic Socialist
i dont know if anyone else saw this movie, but i suggest it. it was on PBS, it was called Putting God on trial, or something like that, im not completly sure. it takes place during ww2, and its about jews in a concentration camp. and while their there, they decide to put god on trial, for breaking his convenant with the jews. i suggest it not because of my own particular bias, but simply its good and thought provoking. any way, during the movie, their talking about the nature of free will. a guy stands up and talks about when he got arrested and dragged off by the nazis. he had 3 sons. they took his 3 sons and were putting them in a seperate truck than he was going in. he went to a guard and pleaded with him to give him his sons. the guard said to pick one. and the man wonders what choice he had? who was he supposed to pick? the weakest, oldest, youngest ect? he asks where his free will was in this?
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Then are apparent choices determined by prior causes just like everything else?
rageoftyrael
Veritas
this might have been in another thread, but a bunch of us came to the conclusion that the supernatural is simply the natural that we don't yet understand. As for an athiest believing in free will, that only makes sense with their beliefs.
If there is no being that created us, and we are here by accident, then it would logically follow that our life is our own, we make choices and go from there. only when a god or diety is put into the mix is our free will threatened. that is how i see it anyway.
i either said this in this thread or another one similar to this. if there is fate, then there can be an omniscient god, and in fact they are most likely one and the same.
If there is no being that created us, and we are here by accident, then it would logically follow that our life is our own, we make choices and go from there. only when a god or diety is put into the mix is our free will threatened. that is how i see it anyway.
i either said this in this thread or another one similar to this. if there is fate, then there can be an omniscient god, and in fact they are most likely one and the same.
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
But if you believe in choice as anything more than apparent, then you believe in supernatural agency.
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
When a tree is hit by lightning and starts on fire, you'd agree that every aspect of what occurred to bring about that event was caused by prior events or motions, transfers of energy, etc., right?
Events in reality occur because they have natural causes, even if I can't completely account for all of the aspects of what causes an event to occur. Agreed?
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Exactly. Now let's make it seem like we are adding an element. You place a saucer of cream and a plate of chicken meat in front of the cat. The cat laps up the cream first. Is there a cause for the cat lapping the cream before eating the chicken?
If so, knowing what you know about an animal like a cat, what would be the immediate cause?
rageoftyrael
Veritas
he's thirstier than he is hungry, so he drinks the cream first
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Perhaps. But that's not the immediate cause. Think cat physiology. What makes a cat's body do anything?
rageoftyrael
Veritas
honestly, you lost me, just go ahead and make your point please
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
It's not a riddle and it's rather obvious. What's happening any time a cat responds to stimuli? Besides, I already got to the point and you said you didn't understand it. So I'm going through it step by step.