Is it possible for you to do anything that God did not already know you would do?

[JMorris]

But if you believe in choice as anything more than apparent, then you believe in supernatural agency.

no thats not what that means. freedom of choice either is or it isnt. if it is, then there are nothing keeping that choice from happening. if there isnt, then there is something keeping that choice from happening. the only thing to keep me from picking 1 over 2 would be an omniscient god who knew before hand i would pick 1.

so no, thats not what it means. it means the obvious:no:

 

[doppelganger]

no thats not what that means. freedom of choice either is or it isnt.

You're begging the question. You haven't asked and determined what a "choice" represents yet. Your statement is meaningless without doing so.

So how does a cat (or you, for that matter) respond to a stimuli in its environment?

 

[Willamena]

See? now I know why they poisoned Socrates.

 

[JMorris]

then you tell me, im tired of these games

 

[doppelganger]

See? now I know why they poisoned Socrates.

Alright, forget it. Everyone go on about their business.

 

[lunamoth]

Alright, forget it. Everyone go on about their business.

Can't the same analysis be applied to reason?

 

[doppelganger]

then you tell me, im tired of these games

The nervous system carries electrical signals to your musculature to make your body move. Those signals are based on your brain processing and responding (both consciously and subconsciously, that is to say in ways you can comprehend and "observe" in your thoughts as well as ways you can't) to sensory input coming in from your body's sense organs about your environment. Same with the cat. This neurological activity and its coordination with the body's other systems, like muscles, is the immediate cause of the response, be it you or the cat.

Are these neurological processes uncaused? Or are they in turn caused by other prior events?

 

[doppelganger]

Can't the same analysis be applied to reason?

The "go on with your business" analysis?

Yes, it would apply to everything if there is no supernatural agency.

 

[lunamoth]

The "go one with your business" analysis.

I'm not familiar with that phrase.

edit: Never mind...did not catch the typo at first. :0

 

[lunamoth]

Yes, it would apply to everything if there is no supernatural agency.

I think many people believe that reason can lead to truth.

 

[doppelganger]

I think many people believe that reason can lead to truth.

Of course it can. That's it's function. It leads to truth for theists and non-theists alike. They all have the truth and it always seems reasonable - because it wouldn't be the truth if it weren't based on reason.

 

[lunamoth]

Of course it can. That's it's function. It leads to truth for theists and non-theists alike. They all have the truth and it always seems reasonable - because it wouldn't be the truth if it weren't based on reason.

So "God" and "no God" are equally true, although not for the same person at a given time.

 

[doppelganger]

So "God" and "no God" are equally true, although not for the same person at a given time.

Right, in the context of thoughts that logically determine the truth or falsity of the proposition. But is there a "you" that controls thought or does thought manufacture and control "you"?

 

[lunamoth]

Right, in the context of thoughts that logically determine the truth or falsity of the proposition. But is there a "you" that controls thought or does thought manufacture and control "you"?

My experience is that I am an "I" that can choose, not bound to act by previous thoughts. I think there are constraints on the possible choices due to the "momentum of the past." I also think there are lures that attempt to pull us in new directions.

 

[doppelganger]

I also think there are lures that attempt to pull us in new directions.

Like what? And what is happening when these lures don't succeed?

 

[lunamoth]

Like what? And what is happening when these lures don't succeed?

I believe that we are lured by God to love each other. I think we can choose to not do so, but I also think that this is mostly due to illness, brokenness (that momentum from the past). This is probably why I lean strongly toward universalism, because I can't believe that anyone not 'healed' (and I think we all will be) could not want to choose love.

 

[Enoch07]

So in your opinion Beau. We as humans have no free will, because God already knows everything hence He is making the decisions for you? So in your own words God is controlling you right now?

Or is it that you choose to not believe in God. Because unless you agree you are a slave to God, who you do not believe in. Then it is proof of free will. If you cop out and just say you don't believe at all, then it only makes you look like a fool, for asking the question to begin with.

 

[rageoftyrael]

it is never foolish to ask a question! Even if the question serves no real purpose other than to allow people to think!

 

[JMorris]

So in your opinion Beau. We as humans have no free will, because God already knows everything hence He is making the decisions for you? So in your own words God is controlling you right now?

Or is it that you choose to not believe in God. Because unless you agree you are a slave to God, who you do not believe in. Then it is proof of free will. If you cop out and just say you don't believe at all, then it only makes you look like a fool, for asking the question to begin with.

:sarcastichmm.....given the omniscience/free will paradox, i dont think god could be making decisions for you. it would beg the question whether god has free will. can god choose what is in the future? or is the future the future and he is just seeing it. if time isnt linear thats another thing entirely. but if it is, then id think he'd be a slave to his own omniscience.

and that second paragraph dosent exactly make sense

 

[Beaudreaux]

So in your opinion Beau. We as humans have no free will, because God already knows everything hence He is making the decisions for you? So in your own words God is controlling you right now?

Enoch...you are being disingenuous here. You know from previous dialogue that I am an atheist. You know I don't believe God is controlling anything because I do not believe there is any such God. What I am doing is pointing out to you the implications of your conception of God. If you believe your God knows everything, then you must understand that, if you are correct, you cannot possibly have free will.

Or is it that you choose to not believe in God. Because unless you agree you are a slave to God, who you do not believe in. Then it is proof of free will. If you cop out and just say you don't believe at all, then it only makes you look like a fool, for asking the question to begin with.

Huh?