Is it possible that the Bible involves exaggeration? (and King Solomon)

[Audie]

I believe it makes sense that it is an estimate since the numbers are too neat to be real.

Good. You believe ( realize)
the Bible is only approximately
true.

 

[dybmh]

Nor I to mine.

No I have not read the book. But I did research the author, read about the book, its content and its inspiration. I read an essay about the book which included quotations from it of the mythical achar in discussion with the mythical Rabbi Akiva, as well as a mythical philosopher.

The reason I did not answer is because your comment did not fit the context without making assumptions that I would not expect to match what you would intend to communicate to me. So, I asked questions to better understand how your comments fit.

The promise made to the "driven leaf" is that rational thought has answers and has a benefit. The potential for harm is that it will destroy faith, produce heresy, and a premature demise, and that's exactly what happened to the achar.

If this was intended, and inspired by my statement: "I think promises like this cause a lot of harm", then, no one should make promises about the benefits of being rational in a religious context. Rational thought should be avoided annd discouraged. Those who do encourage it are the enemies of faith, the comrade of heresy, and would prefer an early demise for themself and others.

The only silver lining would be a sort of sympathy for those who get stuck in a pit of rational thinking and cannot escape from it. Perhaps they were pushed into rational thinking by others. If so their heresy is, of course, not their fault. But, if one knows the potential harm from applying rational thought to religion, and they promote it anyway, I have much less sympathy for them. Misery loves company? No. That doesn't justify dragging others into a pit of despair.

Your turn:

What is the promise made to the acher?
What is the promise made to the driven leaf?

What is the potential for harm?
What is the potential for good?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Your turn:

I'll pass ...

 

[dybmh]

I'll pass ...

Then what's the point of replying to me, Jay?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Then what's the point of replying to me, Jay?

You spoke of promises causing harm. I noted that your comment brought to mind, i.e., was illustrated by, the tale of Ben Abuyah who purportedly saw a youth obey the commands found in Deuteronomy 5:16 and 22:6 -- both promising a long lide -- only to subsequently die, and the impact this had on his faith. I assumed that you would appreciate the referenced book if you had not already read it.

Clearly I was wrong.

 

[dybmh]

You spoke of promises causing harm. I noted that your comment brought to mind, i.e., was illustrated by, the tale of Ben Abuyah who purportedly saw a youth obey the commands found in Deuteronomy 5:16 and 22:6 -- both promising a long lide -- only to subsequently die, and the impact this had on his faith. I assumed that you would appreciate the referenced book if you had not already read it.

Clearly I was wrong.

Jay, I told you, I knew that my own recollection of the story did not match what you intended to communicate. So, I did the right thing and asked you what you meant.

If you had answered, even briefly: "Kiddushin 39/Haggigah2", then I would know what you were referring to.

You are correct that I will not appreciate what you write if you refuse to explain yourself.

Why should I appreciate it?
What is there to appreciate, if you refuse to explain yourself?
Why didn't you just answer the questions when they were asked?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

f you had answered, even briefly: "Kiddusin 39/Haggigah2", then I would know what you were referring to.

It won't happen again.

 

[DNB]

That is God's perogative. The Lord's prayer. "Thy will be done." This is the opposite of what is written in the book of John which is "MY will be done."



The first promise is intended literally.

And yet the parameters were not stipulated in the first agreement, because they were implied. But they are clarified in other passages.

26 Now there was a famine in the land—besides the previous famine in Abraham’s time—and Isaac went to Abimelek king of the Philistines in Gerar. 2 The Lord appeared to Isaac and said, “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land where I tell you to live. 3 Stay in this land for a while, and I will be with you and will bless you. For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham. 4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring[g] all nations on earth will be blessed,[h] 5 because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions

Let's try this? What is the point that is being made by employing hyperbole instead of using direct straight forward language? What is gained by using hyperbole in the below "promise"?

​

John 14:12-14​

​

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.​

​

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.​

​

If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.​

What is the point of leaving out the qualifiers here and making it into something where Jesus' name is like a "magic word"?

I don't think that the text above is hyperbole - all the Apostles did do greater works: the performed more miracles and evangelized more people. Jesus was taken away much sooner than the Apostles - they had much more time and travelled further in order to outperform Jesus.

 

[dybmh]

And yet the parameters were not stipulated in the first agreement, because they were implied. But they are clarified in other passages.

It's still literal.

And what is written in John is NOT literal. NOT even close. The qualifications you are adding reverse the meaning of the promise.

You get two choices:

1. "Truly, Truly" is a lie.
2. "Ask for anything and it will be given to you" is a lie.

It's one or the other, they can't both be true simultaneously.

I don't think that the text above is hyperbole - all the Apostles did do greater works: the performed more miracles and evangelized more people

D, come on. None of the apostles were raised from the dead.

I don't think that the text above is hyperbole

Please look at what was emphasized. That's not hyperbole? That's not exaggerated? We're going around in circles, D. If you're claiming this is true, then, go ahead and produce my son's middle name.

I don't think that the text above is hyperbole - all the Apostles did do greater works:

OK. If you would like to claim this is ONLY directed to the apostles, that's fine. I can totally accept that. But that means other statements by Jesus are also only directed to the apostles as well. Fair deal?

 

[DNB]

It's still literal.

And what is written in John is NOT literal. NOT even close. The qualifications you are adding reverse the meaning of the promise.

You get two choices:

1. "Truly, Truly" is a lie.
2. "Ask for anything and it will be given to you" is a lie.

It's one or the other, they can't both be true simultaneously.



D, come on. None of the apostles were raised from the dead.

Seriously? You, come on - the Father raised Jesus - Jesus did not raise himself, obviously. Both Elijah & Elisha raised the dead, as did Peter & Paul, as did many of the other Apostles (Mat 10:1-8)

Please look at what was emphasized. That's not hyperbole? That's not exaggerated? We're going around in circles, D. If you're claiming this is true, then, go ahead and produce my son's middle name.

View attachment 84129

Do you believe that Jesus meant that if someone were to ask for vengeance in his name, that he would grant it? Or if they were to ask to fornicate with someone, that he would comply?

OK. If you would like to claim this is ONLY directed to the apostles, that's fine. I can totally accept that. But that means other statements by Jesus are also only directed to the apostles as well. Fair deal?

It is addressed to believers alone, and only those with faith that can move mountains will receive what they ask for. If you ask with entitlement or contempt it will not be granted to you. David prayed for the life of his first-born with Bathsheba, but he didn't receive it - does that mean that God is not willing to do whatever one is to ask of Him?

 

[dybmh]

Jesus did not raise himself, obviously.

The quote is truly truly you will be able to do greater than me. Ask for anything and it will be given to you. That means anyone should be able to raise the dead. Unless.... "truly, truly" is a lie, exaggeration, hyperbole. What is the purpose of the hyperbole? You never answered that.

Do you believe that Jesus meant that if someone were to ask for vengeance in his name, that he would grant it? Or if they were to ask to fornicate with someone, that he would comply?

That's a good question. No, I don't think that was intended at all. That's why it's an exaggeration. It's not literally true. Not even a little true. It's not even close to "truly, true" and that's a big problem for a religious Jew. "Amen, Amen" is making an oath with the heavens and the earth as a witness.

It is addressed to believers alone, and only those with faith that can move mountains will receive what they ask for.

OK. If you are a believer, my mother's maiden name please? That will clear all of this up, and be a brilliant proof to bring the atheists on the forum and around the world.

 

[excreationist]

Do you believe that Jesus meant that if someone were to ask for vengeance in his name, that he would grant it?

What about when Jesus cursed the fig tree? It sounds like vengeance to me.
2 Kings 2:23-24 sounds like vengeance too.... which God carried out...
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

 

[Soapy]

Seriously? You, come on - the Father raised Jesus - Jesus did not raise himself, obviously. Both Elijah & Elisha raised the dead, as did Peter & Paul, as did many of the other Apostles (Mat 10:1-8)

Do you believe that Jesus meant that if someone were to ask for vengeance in his name, that he would grant it? Or if they were to ask to fornicate with someone, that he would comply?

It is addressed to believers alone, and only those with faith that can move mountains will receive what they ask for. If you ask with entitlement or contempt it will not be granted to you. David prayed for the life of his first-born with Bathsheba, but he didn't receive it - does that mean that God is not willing to do whatever one is to ask of Him?

Jesus doesn’t grant anything … JESUS ASKS THE FATHER for what you asks for IN JESUS’ NAME.

“In Jesus’ name” is not what the mass majority of people think/are-misled-to-believe. It means, ‘In love, in integrity, in truth, in unselfishness, in holiness, in reverence to God, etc’, basically ‘what Jesus Christ REPRESENTS’.

So you pray TO GOD, the Father, in ‘all that Jesus Christ represents’… and REVENGE is not nor can ever be ‘In the name of Jesus [christ]’. And most certainly ‘Desire to Fornication’ would be “Praying in Satan’s name” (what Satan represents: sinfulness / debauchery / devilishness…)

‘Faith to Move Mountains’ is symbolic saying which simply means ‘To do what would ordinarily seem impossible’. Pushing the boundaries, though, given enough energy and perhaps manpower, a mountain could be ‘thrown into the sea’ over a period of time. Would the consequence of the material matter in mountain flooding into the sea be a consideration - the after effects on the sea level, the change in environmental effects like wind, rain, animal habitat, etc, mean anything to the one saying to the mountain, ‘Throw yourself into the sea’?

 

[Dimi95]

Jesus doesn’t grant anything … JESUS ASKS THE FATHER for what you asks for IN JESUS’ NAME.

Yes , yes , you and your Adams..

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

 

[DNB]

The quote is truly truly you will be able to do greater than me. Ask for anything and it will be given to you. That means anyone should be able to raise the dead. Unless.... "truly, truly" is a lie, exaggeration, hyperbole. What is the purpose of the hyperbole? You never answered that.

People did raise the dead, as I pointed out - they had 'mountain-moving' faith.

That's a good question. No, I don't think that was intended at all. That's why it's an exaggeration. It's not literally true. Not even a little true. It's not even close to "truly, true" and that's a big problem for a religious Jew. "Amen, Amen" is making an oath with the heavens and the earth as a witness.

Jesus promised anything on the basis of both faith and righteousness - God will not deprive His people of what they need, or ask for provided it coincides with His will, and the request stems from love for God.

OK. If you are a believer, my mother's maiden name please? That will clear all of this up, and be a brilliant proof to bring the atheists on the forum and around the world.

How many times now??? Thou shalt not tempt God - we don't make frivolous petitions to God as acts of bravado or for sport - that's contempt

 

[DNB]

What about when Jesus cursed the fig tree? It sounds like vengeance to me.
2 Kings 2:23-24 sounds like vengeance too.... which God carried out...
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

Jesus' curse was not vengeful - that was merely an application from the parable that states that 'whatever serves no purpose is cut down and thrown in the flames'. Jesus was making an illustrative point of what will happen in the end times to the fruitless and unworthy.

Good point with Elisha's seemingly vindictive act of retribution. To me, that's just another depiction of what will occur when one shows contempt for men of God. Prophets in that historical setting were bald - the children were aware of Elisha's standing with God. And as it states in either Leviticus or Deuteronomy, or both, one must stone the insolent child. Although contextually pertaining to a parent/child relationship, maybe there's some justification in these acts for similar reasons?

 

[DNB]

Jesus doesn’t grant anything … JESUS ASKS THE FATHER for what you asks for IN JESUS’ NAME.

“In Jesus’ name” is not what the mass majority of people think/are-misled-to-believe. It means, ‘In love, in integrity, in truth, in unselfishness, in holiness, in reverence to God, etc’, basically ‘what Jesus Christ REPRESENTS’.

So you pray TO GOD, the Father, in ‘all that Jesus Christ represents’… and REVENGE is not nor can ever be ‘In the name of Jesus [christ]’. And most certainly ‘Desire to Fornication’ would be “Praying in Satan’s name” (what Satan represents: sinfulness / debauchery / devilishness…)

‘Faith to Move Mountains’ is symbolic saying which simply means ‘To do what would ordinarily seem impossible’. Pushing the boundaries, though, given enough energy and perhaps manpower, a mountain could be ‘thrown into the sea’ over a period of time. Would the consequence of the material matter in mountain flooding into the sea be a consideration - the after effects on the sea level, the change in environmental effects like wind, rain, animal habitat, etc, mean anything to the one saying to the mountain, ‘Throw yourself into the sea’?

Yes, to pray in Jesus' name is to petition the Father - only the Father grants wishes. - I used a figure of speech to mean that Jesus would comply with, or grant one's request - if he does so, it is by making the request to the Father on behalf of the believer.

 

[excreationist]

Jesus' curse was not vengeful - that was merely an application from the parable that states that 'whatever serves no purpose is cut down and thrown in the flames'. Jesus was making an illustrative point of what will happen in the end times to the fruitless and unworthy.

Matthew 21:18-19
Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

Actually the fig tree was just fruitless at the time Jesus was hungry - it would have had fruit later in the future - if Jesus hadn't have cursed it.... (though in Mark 11:20 the fig tree takes until the morning to wither)

 

[Soapy]

Seriously? You, come on - the Father raised Jesus - Jesus did not raise himself, obviously. Both Elijah & Elisha raised the dead, as did Peter & Paul, as did many of the other Apostles (Mat 10:1-8)

Do you believe that Jesus meant that if someone were to ask for vengeance in his name, that he would grant it? Or if they were to ask to fornicate with someone, that he would comply?

It is addressed to believers alone, and only those with faith that can move mountains will receive what they ask for. If you ask with entitlement or contempt it will not be granted to you. David prayed for the life of his first-born with Bathsheba, but he didn't receive it - does that mean that God is not willing to do whatever one is to ask of Him?

Jesus doesn’t grant anything … JESUS ASKS THE FATHER for what you asks for IN JESUS’ NAME.

“In Jesus’ name” is not what the mass majority of people think/are-misled-to-believe. It means, ‘In love, in integrity, in truth, in unselfishness, in holiness, in reverence to God, etc’, basically ‘what Jesus Christ REPRESENTS’.

So you pray TO GOD, the Father, in ‘all that Jesus Christ represents’… and REVENGE is not nor can ever be ‘In the name of Jesus [christ]’. And most certainly ‘Desire to Fornication’ would be “Praying in Satan’s name” (what Satan represents: sinfulness / debauchery / devilishness…)

‘Faith to Move Mountains’ is symbolic saying which simply means ‘To do what would ordinarily seem impossible’. Pushing the boundaries, though, given enough energy and perhaps manpower, a mountain could be ‘thrown into the sea’ over a period of time. Would the consequence of the material matter in mountain flooding into the sea be a consideration - the after effects on the sea level, the change in environmental effects like wind, rain, animal habitat, etc, mean anything to the one saying to the mountain, ‘Throw yourself into the sea’?

Yes , yes , you and your Adams..

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

So you agree that Jesus doesn’t grant anything in respect of the situation described : ‘I will ask the Father and he will give you what you ask for’!!

 

[Audie]

Matthew 21:18-19
Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

Actually the fig tree was just fruitless at the time Jesus was hungry - it would have had fruit later in the future - if Jesus hadn't have cursed it.... (though in Mark 11:20 the fig tree takes until the morning to wither)

I don't believe the story