Is it possible to believe in both God and Evolution?

[Mister_T]

That's true. However, the authorities were notably unconcerned about the disappearance of O'Hair and her son and granddaughter. They refused even to accept a missing persons report from anyone but O'Hair's son, a Christian preacher who had publicly vilified his mother and refused to file a report. It was widely reported, and is still widely believed, that O'Hair and her family stole funds from American Atheists and went into hiding. The Murray-O'Hairs survived in captivity for at least a month before they were murdered. It's entirely possible that their deaths might have been prevented if the good Christians at the Austin PD had given a damn.

However true that may be, that does not make "Christians" responsible for her murder.

Despite what Logician was trying to falliciously insinuate, Madelyn O'Hair was not murdered by theists for her Atheism. Nor was she a saint by any means. The reason O'Hair's son "villified" her is because she disowned him after he converted to Christianity.

From the Wiki article:

In 1980, Bill Murray converted to Christianity and was baptised at a Baptist church in Dallas, where he took up work as a preacher. This led to a permanent estrangement between mother and son. As she put it, "One could call this a postnatal abortion on the part of a mother, I guess; I repudiate him entirely and completely for now and all times...he is beyond human forgiveness."[19]

Had that been my mother, I wouldn't have anything nice to say about her either.

 

[logician]

That's true. However, the authorities were notably unconcerned about the disappearance of O'Hair and her son and granddaughter. They refused even to accept a missing persons report from anyone but O'Hair's son, a Christian preacher who had publicly vilified his mother and refused to file a report. It was widely reported, and is still widely believed, that O'Hair and her family stole funds from American Atheists and went into hiding. The Murray-O'Hairs survived in captivity for at least a month before they were murdered. It's entirely possible that their deaths might have been prevented if the good Christians at the Austin PD had given a damn.

It is true that Ohairs' murder was not specifically related to their beliefs, however, they had received many, many, death threats from anti-atheist groups, and who knows else, and as posted here the police didn't properly investigate, so the idea that they were not discriminated against by Christian groups is patently absurd.

 

[Captain Civic]

It is true that Ohairs' murder was not specifically related to their beliefs, however, they had received many, many, death threats from anti-atheist groups, and who knows else, and as posted here the police didn't properly investigate, so the idea that they were not discriminated against by Christian groups is patently absurd.

Anti-atheist != Christian.

 

[Sunstone]

Of course, it's possible to believe in both God and evolution. But doing so usually requires a more sophisticated notion of God than is common.

 

[Scuba Pete]

It is true that Ohairs' murder was not specifically related to their beliefs, however, they had received many, many, death threats from anti-atheist groups, and who knows else, and as posted here the police didn't properly investigate, so the idea that they were not discriminated against by Christian groups is patently absurd.

So let's get this straight.

You make an outlandish claim. It is debunked not by one, but by two people.

But you still want to blame Christians for it SOMEHOW, so you keep on making claim after vapid claim with absolutely no evidence to back it up. Your anti-Christian bias is so evident that it's just PAINFUL.

I lived through this ordeal. My mother had disowned ME in the Spring of 1977 because I had converted to Christianity. By the time this happened we had repaired our relationship, but I remember her calling me on the phone when it happened accusing all Christendom of murdering her. I never got to meet her or Bill Murray, but I felt a kind of kinship with him. We had both suffered for what we believed in. The facts are: people talked to them. We had no idea what to believe: money was missing and many of us thought she was hiding from it all. Even my mom became disillusioned by all of these facts until the REAL story came out. Then the horror came out.

Point in fact: hate transcends almost every faith or non-faith. People don't trust those who are different. Christians here on RF get all kinds of condescension for what we believe. I guess we have gotten used to it. It doesn't matter if you are black, white theist or non-theist. We are all subject to bigotry and we all must do whatever we can to treat our differing beliefs with equal respect.

 

[ChristineES]

Point in fact: hate transcends almost every faith or non-faith. People don't trust those who are different. Christians here on RF get all kinds of condescension for what we believe. I guess we have gotten used to it. It doesn't matter if you are black, white theist or non-theist. We are all subject to bigotry and we all must do whatever we can to treat our differing beliefs with equal respect.

Amen to that!

I will frubal you here since I can't send you a frubal right now!

 

[fantome profane]

Let me state unequivocally, that discrimination FOR or AGAINST a person because of their personal beliefs is wrong and completely unconstitutional. It's my biggest beef with the BSA.

However, I don't see this as being any where near the systematic discrimination experienced by Jews, by blacks and even by communists. My mother, a proclaimed atheist, has spent her entire life battling for equal rights and talking with her, she can't ever remember being discriminated against for that. For being a single mom: yes. For associating with Blacks: yes, and me too. For protesting the war: yes and we were tapped by the FBI in the late sixties. But she can't remember once being denied for being an atheist.

Good point. Since discrimination has not occurred to your mother for being an atheist it obviously doesn’t exist.

 

[Smoke]

Not quite; this story is about providing "a forum for Christian children to pray each morning" outside the class.

From the story:

The debate over religion's place in the school started when a teacher at one of the division's elementary schools in High River allowed the Lord's Prayer to be recited in class and the trend quickly spread -- and a public uproar soon ensued.
​

I still suspect the Calgary incident may have been very old.

It might be. Margaret Downey is my only source, and she doesn't say.

 

[Smoke]

Anti-atheist != Christian.

In Texas? Usually.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Good point. Since discrimination has not occurred to your mother for being an atheist it obviously doesn’t exist.

Great tactic... when you can't refute it, merely twist what they say. Are you a Republican by chance? They prefer this style when they have run out of valid arguments.

 

[logician]

So let's get this straight.

You make an outlandish claim. It is debunked not by one, but by two people.

But you still want to blame Christians for it SOMEHOW, so you keep on making claim after vapid claim with absolutely no evidence to back it up. Your anti-Christian bias is so evident that it's just PAINFUL.

I lived through this ordeal. My mother had disowned ME in the Spring of 1977 because I had converted to Christianity. By the time this happened we had repaired our relationship, but I remember her calling me on the phone when it happened accusing all Christendom of murdering her. I never got to meet her or Bill Murray, but I felt a kind of kinship with him. We had both suffered for what we believed in. The facts are: people talked to them. We had no idea what to believe: money was missing and many of us thought she was hiding from it all. Even my mom became disillusioned by all of these facts until the REAL story came out. Then the horror came out.

Point in fact: hate transcends almost every faith or non-faith. People don't trust those who are different. Christians here on RF get all kinds of condescension for what we believe. I guess we have gotten used to it. It doesn't matter if you are black, white theist or non-theist. We are all subject to bigotry and we all must do whatever we can to treat our differing beliefs with equal respect.

To equate the discrimination atheists receive with those that CHristians receive in the U.S. is dishonest and absurd. Bush Sr. said that atheists should not be considered to be citizens or patriots and got away with it. Can you imagine if some politician said the same about Christians? You're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[ChristineES]

I think I can say that any person at all may be subject to discrimination somewhere or another. A Theist may discriminate against an Atheist and an Atheist may discriminate against a Theist. Just the same that a white may discriminate against blacks and a black may discriminate against whites. One religion may discriminate against another.

What I am trying to say is: Try to look at things from another point of view other than your own. If you do, you will more than likely be surprised.

 

[Willamena]

Nice waffling!

 

[ChristineES]

Nice waffling!

What you call waffling I call trying to stop an argument.

 

[Smoke]

I think I can say that any person at all may be subject to discrimination somewhere or another. A Theist may discriminate against an Atheist and an Atheist may discriminate against a Theist. Just the same that a white may discriminate against blacks and a black may discriminate against whites. One religion may discriminate against another.

In that case, though, isn't it a obvious lie to say that atheists are not discriminated against? And isn't it likely that people whose views on god are notably different from the majority's are more likely to be discriminated against than those who conform to the majority view? Why all the bluster (not from you, Christine) about atheists being free from discrimination? What's the motivation for people to assert, in defiance of common sense and hundreds of known cases of discrimination, that atheists are not discriminated against?

 

[ChristineES]

Yes, it is a lie to say that atheists are never discriminated against. People who are theists like me aren't going to see this discrimination since it doesn't happen to us, unless we actively work to see it. You can see anything if you actively try to see it. It is the same as saying "don't judge a man until you walk a mile in his shoes".

That said, I don't believe Ms. O'Hair was killed because she was an atheist as much as she was a foul woman (which even some atheists agree with). After all, Carl Sagan, and others like him (A man I admire) was an atheist but wasn't murdered, he died of natural causes.

 

[Smoke]

That said, I don't believe Ms. O'Hair was killed because she was an atheist as much as she was a foul woman (which even some atheists agree with).

She wasn't a pleasant person, but that statement is really unfair. She was murdered by a brutal psychopath who had stolen tens of thousands of dollars from American Atheists and whom she had exposed. David Waters murdered several people other than the Murray-O'Hairs, and once severely beat and urinated on his own mother. Madalyn wasn't murdered because she was a foul woman, but because she had the misfortune to cross paths with a truly foul man.

 

[Wandered Off]

David Waters murdered several people other than the Murray-O'Hairs

This is true. Ms. O'Hair's granddaughter was also murdered with her. As it happens, I attended middle school with her, and I know she wasn't foul in the least, especially considering all the crap she had to take from people who didn't like her grandmother.

 

[Smoke]

Despite what Logician was trying to falliciously insinuate, Madelyn O'Hair was not murdered by theists for her Atheism. Nor was she a saint by any means. The reason O'Hair's son "villified" her is because she disowned him after he converted to Christianity.

From the Wiki article:

Had that been my mother, I wouldn't have anything nice to say about her either.

He had not merely converted to Christianity, but had repeatedly and publicly vilified his mother before she disowned him.

 

[Godfather89]

That depends if it is in conflict with your beliefs, to me its possible to have both in your life. To me evolution explains how our bodies came into existence not our being. That comes from something higher So knowing that if you have come to the conclusion that I came to that you are not your body than you can safely accept the Theory of Evolution with the belief that your being came from God.