Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God?

[Sgt. Pepper]

The premise of my thread is to debate the questions posted below, and my debate thread is open for anyone to answer, Christian or non-Christian alike. Answer yes or no to the questions, and then substantiate your answer. Christians should note that quoting scriptures isn't a convincing argument, because the bible has ample examples of God either directly killing people and ordering the Israelites to wipe out entire nations, including killing women, children, and infants (1 Samuel 15:3). For instance, God commanded the Israelites to wipe the Amalikites off the face of the earth (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2; Deuteronomy 25:17).

First question: Why would a loving, merciful God create evil (Isaiah 45:7)?

Second Question (Part 1, 2, and 3): Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God in light of the Holocaust and in light of every other inhumane atrocity and tragedy in human history? What about the rampant rate of murder, sexual assault, abuse, starvation, and deadly diseases and viruses? Are all of these examples that I provided compatible with the belief in a loving, merciful God?

Please take all of these examples into consideration while deciding how you will answer the questions. Please be civil in your replies, and absolutely no name-calling or disparaging remarks about the people who believe differently than you.

I look forward to the replies. Thank you, in advance, for answering the questions.

Sgt. Pepper

 

[VoidCat]

Not a christian but pagan...not all gods are loving. some are. some aren't. they are as diverse and as flawed as humans

First question: Why would a loving, merciful God create evil (Isaiah 45:7)?

I don't know if any god created evil or not. i don't even know if the world was created or not

Second Question (Part 1, 2, and 3): Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God in light of the Holocaust and in light of every other inhumane atrocity and tragedy in human history? What about the rampant rate of murder, sexual assault, abuse, starvation, and deadly diseases and viruses? Are all of these examples that I provided compatible with the belief in a loving, merciful God?

As I said many gods aren't loving or merciful. but those that are you can believe them to be. Because none of them are all powerful and none stop all those things. Others have their own battles with each other and still other don't concerned themselves with humans.

now an all powerful loving deity that's a different story. I can't speak for those who believe that.

 

[Jack11]

God told them to do it but they didn't do it they let the people live and did not follow Gods command. They were immediately corrupted by all these people they let live with their foreign gods even to the point of sacrificing their children to a wooden God. God did not want that to happen but they didn't listen and it did happen.You need to continue reading and see just what happened because its not as you say. Israel from the first day was surrounded by enemies and was constantly at battle. Its what kings did at the time - take over other kingdoms and there was no shortage of Kings trying to claim the land as you can read.

Even modern countries today claim God is with them in war. The USA for example.

 

[rational experiences]

If men as humans quote they are a man of god I believe in a God of mercy.

By choice and behaviour.

If men of God do science that God irradiated us by gods powers that kills us I believe in a God without mercy also.

Then I look at nature.

Nature the beast is merciless and kills for food.

Heavens destroys life whenever as God owns it said science.

Earth erupts God owns it too. Destroys life.

Logical God in science owns no mercy.

Men of science invented weapons from gods body earth to kill life women children.

 

[F1fan]

The bottom line is those who wrote Bible stories, and the lore they were based on, did not consider the stories would be taken literally, and then be subjected to criticism. I don't think these stories were written to make sense, but as a narrative for the cultures they were part of. In modern societies that include the Abrahamic religions, it's not possible to try to make them fit a rational and true framework. The mental gymnastics are exhausting for believers.

 

[F1fan]

The premise of my thread is to debate the questions posted below, and my debate thread is open for anyone to answer, Christian or non-Christian alike. Answer yes or no to the questions, and then substantiate your answer. Christians should note that quoting scriptures isn't a convincing argument, because the bible has ample examples of God either directly killing people and ordering the Israelites to wipe out entire nations, including killing women, children, and infants (1 Samuel 15:3). For instance, God commanded the Israelites to wipe the Amalikites off the face of the earth (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2; Deuteronomy 25:17).

First question: Why would a loving, merciful God create evil (Isaiah 45:7)?

It wouldn't. At least not before making sure the beings it creates can adequately deal with evil.

If God created humans with wisdom and abilities to a degree they could manage evil, then evil would just be a challenge that kept humans on their toes. It wouldn't create evil just to kill them in huge numbers, which it does.

Yahweh is like throwing kittens and puppies into boiling water and seeing if they can swim out.

It's like, why would loving parents beat their kids to death? Well, those aren't loving parents.

The Bible makes no sense from a rational assessment.

 

[sun rise]

First question: Why would a loving, merciful God create evil (Isaiah 45:7)?

Second Question (Part 1, 2, and 3): Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God in light of the Holocaust and in light of every other inhumane atrocity and tragedy in human history? What about the rampant rate of murder, sexual assault, abuse, starvation, and deadly diseases and viruses? Are all of these examples that I provided compatible with the belief in a loving, merciful God?

I had to answer these questions for myself before I could believe in God. This is a sketch of my thought process:

My answer starts with a non-dual, advaita, perspective. There is only the Divine and we are all, as it were, drops in the Divine ocean. The next part of my answer is that duality is only apparent. Our limited minds see the polarities up/down, in/out, good/evil but they are illusory as there is only divinity.

The next step is "so why the does the illusion of duality exist"? The answer for me is "a whim". Divinity had the whim to, as it were, hold up the mirror of conscious self-knowledge.

Another step is to create an analogy to dreaming. We have dreams in which we apparently have pleasure and apparently have pain. But when we wake up, we think "oh, it was only a dream. The illusion of good/evil, pleasure/pain thus vanishes as nothing when we "wake up".

There's one more bit. If you look at the self-inflicted pain that people embrace to achieve a goal, all the pain and suffering that goes into, for example, winning an Olympic gold metal is seen as worth it to achieve that victory. And maybe it makes that victory even sweeter because overcoming the apparent suffering made the joy even greater.

Finally: each 'drop soul' passes through all forms from gas to stone to metal to plant and finally to human form. So all the experiences along that long path are also part of the plan.

I could write a book expanding on this but this has all the main elements of my personal answer to the questions.

 

[AlexanderG]

Right, the problem of evil is a huge problem for any version of a god that is all powerful, all knowing, and benevolent.

The common apologetic is that god's desire for us to have "free will" somehow overrides its desire to treat us according to any common definition of benevolence. The problem with this is that god already takes away our free will in an infinite number of ways. I want to fly with the power of my mind. I will to do so, but god has enacted laws of nature such that I cannot, no matter how much I want to. I also can't tame dragons, or never sleep, or tunnel through space to instantly appear at the grocery store. And yet I can pick up a hammer and smash someone's head in. God could have enacted laws of nature such that I could never kill, rape, or enslave someone else, no matter how much I willed it, but he chose to prevent me from flying instead. This seems like a system that a non-benevolent god would design.

Another excuse is that we humans corrupted god's perfect design with sin (even though god apparently intentionally created us this way, knowing in advance that we would do so). Well, why did god put an appealing, delicious food in the middle of his perfect design that, if eaten, would corrupt and distort everything into a wasteland of toil, suffering, and random disasters? If an engineer did something like that, you'd say their design was extremely imperfect.

 

[Trailblazer]

The mental gymnastics are exhausting for believers.

They would be if we believed the stories.

 

[Trailblazer]

First question: Why would a loving, merciful God create evil (Isaiah 45:7)?

First off, I do not believe that God created evil, I think that was a bad translation. Evil means profoundly immoral and wicked and it only applies to humans and their behavior.

Look at all the other translations below. What I think this means is that God sends us good times and bad times, God brings prosperity and creates disasters. I think that the reason God does this is to test our faith and also because suffering helps us grow spiritually.

Most people have more good times than bad times so they have something to thank God for but if life was always good times we would never be challenged and grow spiritually. Those people who have suffered most in life have the most character.

KJ21
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.

ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

KJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

NASB
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.

NIV
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

NKJV
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’

NLV
I make light and I make darkness. I bring good and I make trouble. I am the Lord Who does all these things.

NLT
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.

NRSV
I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things.

Second Question (Part 1, 2, and 3): Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God in light of the Holocaust and in light of every other inhumane atrocity and tragedy in human history? What about the rampant rate of murder, sexual assault, abuse, starvation, and deadly diseases and viruses? Are all of these examples that I provided compatible with the belief in a loving, merciful God?

I believe these atrocities are all caused by humans, not by God. The most you can say, and many atheists say this, is that God should not allow these things to happen or as some atheists say God should intervene. From my belief perspective this is untenable because God is not Superman. That is what it would amount to if God intervened every time something “bad” was about to happen. It would upset the order in the world which is based upon free will choices.

I think a more useful question is why God created a world such as this in which He knew so many people would suffer, often through no fault of their own. Again, I think that the reason God created a material world is to test our faith and also because suffering helps us grow spiritually.

 

[AlexanderG]

First off, I do not believe that God created evil, I think that was a bad translation. Evil means profoundly immoral and wicked and it only applies to humans and their behavior.

Look at all the other translations below. What I think this means is that God sends us good times and bad times, God brings prosperity and creates disasters. I think that the reason God does this is to test our faith and also because suffering helps us grow spiritually.

Most people have more good times than bad times so they have something to thank God for but if life was always good times we would never be challenged and grow spiritually. Those people who have suffered most in life have the most character.

KJ21
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.

ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

KJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

NASB
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.

NIV
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

NKJV
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’

NLV
I make light and I make darkness. I bring good and I make trouble. I am the Lord Who does all these things.

NLT
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.

NRSV
I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things.

I believe these atrocities are all caused by humans, not by God. The most you can say, and many atheists say this, is that God should not allow these things to happen or as some atheists say God should intervene. From my belief perspective this is untenable because God is not Superman. That is what it would amount to if God intervened every time something “bad” was about to happen. It would upset the order in the world which is based upon free will choices.

I think a more useful question is why God created a world such as this in which He knew so many people would suffer, often through no fault of their own. Again, I think that the reason God created a material world is to test our faith and also because suffering helps us grow spiritually.

I mean, I would consider disaster, woe, bad times, calamity, and trouble to be part of what evil is. And why would a benevolent god create these things? How does a tsunami hitting a city promote the exercise of human free will? I just don't see it. And no one is saying a god should fix everything, but stopping earthquakes and cancer in toddlers would at least be reasonable, right?

You also must realize that the observable world is also entirely consistent with a random, mindless natural universe, right? Or a god that is apathetic? Or a god that is evil but allows some good in order to give us the free choice to choose evil over good? You can invent ad hoc speculation to explain why a benevolent god would act in a way that seems non-benevolent. For someone who doesn't already believe, though, these arguments are nothing. I might as well argue that there's a magic fairy who, for mysterious reasons, makes my 6-sized dice turn up the number 3 roughly 1/6th of the time I roll it, instead of random chance. I'd be free to believe it, but it sure isn't persuasive, and it sure isn't evidence of any kind.

 

[Trailblazer]

I mean, I would consider disaster, woe, bad times, calamity, and trouble to be part of what evil is. And why would a benevolent god create these things? How does a tsunami hitting a city promote the exercise of human free will? I just don't see it. And no one is saying a god should fix everything, but stopping earthquakes and cancer in toddlers would at least be reasonable, right?

I do not believe that God created tsumanis or any other natural disasters. Rather these events are just inherent in a physical world.

No, I do not think that God stopping earthquakes and cancer in toddlers would be reasonable. I see no reason why God should intervene in this world and stop things we consider bad from happening. That is turning God into some kind of superhero. An where would that end? Would God save some toddlers and not others? What about adults who have terrible diseases, accidents and injuries?

You also must realize that the observable world is also entirely consistent with a random, mindless natural universe, right?

How we see the physical world is all a matter of perspective. No, I do not believe that. I believe there is a purpose for physical reality, as this book says.

Why do spiritual beings--human souls--begin their lives in the physical world? According to well-known Baha'i author, scholar, and educator John Hatcher, the world is a classroom designed by God to instigate and nurture mental and spiritual growth. The Purpose of Physical Reality examines the components of this classroom to show how everyday experience leads to spiritual insight. Viewing life in this way, we can learn to appreciate the overall justice of God's plan and the subtle interplay between human free will and divine assistance in unleashing human potential. The idea of physical reality as a divine teaching device not only prepares us for further progress in the life beyond, it also provides practical advice about how to attain spiritual and intellectual understanding while we are living on earth.
The Purpose of Physical Reality book by John S. Hatcher

Or a god that is apathetic? Or a god that is evil but allows some good in order to give us the free choice to choose evil over good? You can invent ad hoc speculation to explain why a benevolent god would act in a way that seems non-benevolent. For someone who doesn't already believe, though, these arguments are nothing. I might as well argue that there's a magic fairy who, for mysterious reasons, makes my 6-sized dice turn up the number 3 roughly 1/6th of the time I roll it, instead of random chance.

God is not acting in any way. God is not a man who acts, God is exalted beyond human understanding.

There will always be good and evil as long as man has free will and some people will choose evil. The only way to prevent evil would be to make humans as programmed robots.

 

[AlexanderG]

I do not believe that God created tsumanis or any other natural disasters. Rather these events are just inherent in a physical world.

No, I do not think that God stopping earthquakes and cancer in toddlers would be reasonable. I see no reason why God should intervene in this world and stop things we consider bad from happening. That is turning God into some kind of superhero. An where would that end? Would God save some toddlers and not others? What about adults who have terrible diseases, accidents and injuries?

How we see the physical world is all a matter of perspective. No, I do not believe that. I believe there is a purpose for physical reality, as this book says.

Why do spiritual beings--human souls--begin their lives in the physical world? According to well-known Baha'i author, scholar, and educator John Hatcher, the world is a classroom designed by God to instigate and nurture mental and spiritual growth. The Purpose of Physical Reality examines the components of this classroom to show how everyday experience leads to spiritual insight. Viewing life in this way, we can learn to appreciate the overall justice of God's plan and the subtle interplay between human free will and divine assistance in unleashing human potential. The idea of physical reality as a divine teaching device not only prepares us for further progress in the life beyond, it also provides practical advice about how to attain spiritual and intellectual understanding while we are living on earth.
The Purpose of Physical Reality book by John S. Hatcher

God is not acting in any way. God is not a man who acts, God is exalted beyond human understanding.

There will always be good and evil as long as man has free will and some people will choose evil. The only way to prevent evil would be to make humans as programmed robots.

Interesting. Essentially, you're arguing that god must not be all-powerful and so can't be blamed. Usually I see theists try to solve the problem of evil by redefining all-knowing to make it more limited and excuse god, like with Molinism, or redefining all loving to be compatible with infinite torment, and to be basically compatible with any horrific suffering that god mysteriously wants to inflict, again excusing god.

It sounds like you're saying that creating a physical world without random gratuitous suffering would be "too hard" for a god to design. And that a being with infinite power would be too hard-pressed to exert a finite amount of effort (which is 0% of infinity) to stop such suffering if it would occur. I mean, ok. What use is this god, then? Why even create us, if he's going to be a deadbeat deity? Couldn't a god have instead created beings that could find "spiritual insight" or could make "further progress" without having to suffer as part of the learning process? If not, why not? You can simply assert that this system is just but I don't see it. Again, this god seems indistinguishable from apathetic randomness or maliciousness. I'm left with the conclusion that I have a better moral character than the god you believe in, because I would find it trivially easy to be more loving if we swapped places.

And if "I can't comprehend the mind of god" or "I can't judge god" to properly conclude he's not good/loving, then you equally can't comprehend or judge him to properly conclude he is good/loving.

 

[Trailblazer]

Interesting. Essentially, you're arguing that god must not be all-powerful and so can't be blamed.

No, I am not arguing that at all. Why would God be to blame if He was all-powerful? Just because God is all-powerful that does not mean God is obligated to use His power to do things that atheists think He should do. An all-powerful God only does what He chooses to do, not what people want Him to do. Try to think about why.

It sounds like you're saying that creating a physical world without random gratuitous suffering would be "too hard" for a god to design.

No, I am not saying that either. Nothing is too hard for an all-powerful and all-knowing God. God wanted to design the world this way or it would not be this way.

And that a being with infinite power would be too hard-pressed to exert a finite amount of effort (which is 0% of infinity) to stop such suffering if it would occur. I mean, ok. What use is this god, then? Why even create us, if he's going to be a deadbeat deity?

God does not want to put an end to all suffering, is that hard to understand? God is all-knowing so God knows more than you since you are not all-knowing so God knows what is in the best interest of humans.

God's purpose for humans is not to make sure they are happy all the time. This short life is a preparation for the next life, which is forever. If we play our cards right here there will be no more suffering in the next life, only joy and gladness.

Couldn't a god have instead created beings that could find "spiritual insight" or could make "further progress" without having to suffer as part of the learning process? If not, why not?

Again, God could have done that if He wanted to, but the fact that this is not what we see tells us that is not what God chose to do. We either accept that or remain in torment over it or we are apathetic about it. I don't like suffering any more than you do, especially because most of my life has been suffering, but I finally decided to try to make peace with it.

And if "I can't comprehend the mind of god" or "I can't judge god" to properly conclude he's not good/loving, then you equally can't comprehend or judge him to properly conclude he is good/loving.

The only way we can ever know anything about God is through the Messengers of God. The reason I believe God is good and loving is because of what the Messengers said. If I did not have scriptures I might think like you because I would look at the world and see all the suffering. Of course there is a lot of good in the world too, a lot of happiness, so I wonder why atheists just hone in on the suffering.

 

[rational experiences]

Pretty basic think for yourself human.

I love humanity. I would not purposely hurt anyone. If I was angry and hurt someone's feelings I would feel extreme guilt.

Hence God is just a teaching.

Fact of life a father and a mother teaches their baby to be safe.

Don't change earth said our parents.

Natives have a basic life say the same today as they did before.

Think about the future life. Whenever you make a choice now.

Those types of natural behaviours prove God by human terms does not love you.

Heavens react.
Earth reacts kills us.

Why anyone thinks it's an argument is about as unrealistic a human belief that is being expressed.

God loves you says a baby human.

Who is God in the status? My father.

Did your first father own a healthier life?

Most memory still irridiated says no. After Moses history.

If your DNA memory was before you would know father supported by a different earth God body mass and heavens loved you.

Science changed it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The bottom line is those who wrote Bible stories, and the lore they were based on, did not consider the stories would be taken literally, and then be subjected to criticism. I don't think these stories were written to make sense, but as a narrative for the cultures they were part of. In modern societies that include the Abrahamic religions, it's not possible to try to make them fit a rational and true framework. The mental gymnastics are exhausting for believers.

Well, yes. But that also applies to the Greek ideas of truth and rational. Both are narratives, which in the end has to believed.

 

[F1fan]

No, I am not arguing that at all. Why would God be to blame if He was all-powerful? Just because God is all-powerful that does not mean God is obligated to use His power to do things that atheists think He should do. An all-powerful God only does what He chooses to do, not what people want Him to do. Try to think about why.

Well the "all powerful God" is what certain theists assert. We all make observations about nature that is not consistent with what we humans consider moral, loving, or good. Humans also have assigned themselves special status among all other animals, and this is even more exaggerated with theists who consider our species a special, spiritual being.

The dilemma we see is that the physical universe does not treat we human very well. We get terrible diseases, suffer harsh environments and natural disasters, have to deal with parasites and microorganisms that kill us, so how can we believe we are any different than other animals?

So we atheists only point out the inconsistency between what some theists claim about humans and nature and the Creator of it all.

No, I am not saying that either. Nothing is too hard for an all-powerful and all-knowing God. God wanted to design the world this way or it would not be this way.

So why did the Creator make a world where children are born with defects and cancers, with little chance of survival?

I'd be impressed with a Creation where we observe children getting a free pass on diseases until they hit puberty, or something. That would be SOMETHING an all-powerful God could do for the innocent. But it created a system of genetic faults, and it is a lottery whether you lose or not.

God does not want to put an end to all suffering, is that hard to understand? God is all-knowing so God knows more than you since you are not all-knowing so God knows what is in the best interest of humans.

What is hard to understand what use is the suffering of children with cancer. How deadly bacterias are useful for anyone. How deadly virus are useful for societies. There is a big difference between suffering emotional distress from loss, or suffering physical stress by doing exercises. It'a another to be born with cancer that will kill one child at 5 years old but not the siblings. If this is understandable by a reasonable mind, explain it.

God's purpose for humans is not to make sure they are happy all the time. This short life is a preparation for the next life, which is forever. If we play our cards right here there will be no more suffering in the next life, only joy and gladness.

This is all dogma, and just a playground for a mind that is rattled by mortality. I see too many theists afraid of death and end up not living their actual life because they think the real life is eternity after death.

I don't blame religions for selling this sort of toxic theology, I blame the theist for being attracted to these concepts and surrendering their intellectual and emotional freedom to it. There is nothing spiritual about this, it is simply dogma that exploits the raw emotion.

Again, God could have done that if He wanted to, but the fact that this is not what we see tells us that is not what God chose to do. We either accept that or remain in torment over it or we are apathetic about it. I don't like suffering any more than you do, especially because most of my life has been suffering, but I finally decided to try to make peace with it.

Part of the suffering theists experience is struggling to justify the idea of a loving God with a universe that consistently poses threats to our well-being. It would be easy to create a less deadly universe IF human life is actually valuable.

If human life isn't valuable then there is no morality around murder or abortion or even any other type of harm to others.

The only way we can ever know anything about God is through the Messengers of God. The reason I believe God is good and loving is because of what the Messengers said. If I did not have scriptures I might think like you because I would look at the world and see all the suffering. Of course there is a lot of good in the world too, a lot of happiness, so I wonder why atheists just hone in on the suffering.

There is no reason to believe Messengers of God are authentic.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...

If human life isn't valuable then there is no morality around murder or abortion or even any other type of harm to others.

...

Well, I have never seen established that human life is valuable with strong rationality and/or evidence, so that human life is valuable, is in effect a belief and/or an act of faith to me.

 

[oldbadger]

First question: Why would a loving, merciful God create evil (Isaiah 45:7)?

Nope.

Second Question (Part 1, 2, and 3): Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God in light of the Holocaust and in light of every other inhumane atrocity and tragedy in human history? What about the rampant rate of murder, sexual assault, abuse, starvation, and deadly diseases and viruses? Are all of these examples that I provided compatible with the belief in a loving, merciful God?

No.
The resident power around here is Mother Nature and although she can be very friendly she can also be ruthlessly cruel.
So roll the dice and take your chance within chaos.

 

[Jack11]

Its a drop in the bucket compared to the crusades where the low estimate is 1 million souls to 9 million soul depending on the source that were killed or died from pestilence brutal horrible deaths - all in the name of God to take the holy land. They all believe God wanted them to take the holy land. Is God blamed for that?