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Is it right to deny the American people jobs because of your religion?

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Why? Please explain in detail why we need to have our homes so comfortable at great expense I might add. Many folks keep their homes heated or cooled all day at unrealistic temperatures just for the convienience of when they return home.

There is a great green technology called a clothes line, perhaps you have heard of it.

Do you really need a big refrigerator?

Our hair will dry naturally, why on earth do we need to have hair dryers?

Do you not see the hypocrisy of your argument?

I agree with most of that, as someone who does most that anyway. We heat our house with a wood stove (with a backup furnace), and keep it at 60 F. I think that thermostats should still be adjustable (like if we had a young kid, we'd probably want the house a little warmer), but I don't think it should be allowed to go above ~68 F. Anything more really is overkill; I melt when I visit other people or spend the night in a hotel.

We dry most of our clothes on a line by our woodstove in the winter, and one outside in the summer.

My main concern is the hair dryer, unless you don't mind all women having to have man-short hair. I live in a rather cold climate, and it would be a death sentence to go outside with wet hair, and my hair won't dry on its own (if I don't dry it in the winter, it will stay wet all day). In the summer, I let it air dry, though.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I love a clothesline! Nothing sweeter than snuggling down in sun dried sheets and nestling your head into a sun soaked pillow!
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Why? Please explain in detail why we need to have our homes so comfortable at great expense I might add. Many folks keep their homes heated or cooled all day at unrealistic temperatures just for the convienience of when they return home.

Hold on a second here. You suggested a thermostat that cannot be changed. First off, that's not even going to help. I keep mine at 68 in the winter and 74 in the summer. If I kept it at 70 the whole time, that would probably waste energy. Second, keeping them heated or cooled during the day isn't just convenience. There's not much difference between leaving it on all day and having it only on when you're home.

There is a great green technology called a clothes line, perhaps you have heard of it.

There's another technology called a clothes dryer. Maybe you've heard of it.

Do you really need a big refrigerator?

Need? There's not much I truly need. It's not about need. It's about what's realistic and reasonable. It's not unreasonable to have bug refrigerators.

Our hair will dry naturally, why on earth do we need to have hair dryers?

Sure, and we can walk to work too, and we can write stuff on paper instead of using a computer. There are a lot of things that aren't necessary that are still useful. Instead of trying to get rid of everything that isn't necessary, let's figure out a way to keep using things while being better to the environment.

Do you not see the hypocrisy of your argument?

First, what argument? Second, what is the hypocrisy? All I've said here is that we need to keep investing in green technology and that solar and wind are still good options. There's no hypocrisy in saying that while we can change certain things about our daily lives to be greener, some things aren't realistic or reasonable. The goal is to not damage the environment. That goal can probably be accomplished without giving up little things like hair dryers and big refrigerators. If at some point we find out it can't, then we can talk about giving those things up.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
When all the green technologies are in place, your electric bill will be larger than your mortage and you will gladly throw away your energy hogs in your home so you can afford to keep your lights on.

Just as how high will the breaking point be for you as far as gasoline prices go before you walk to work?

5 dollars a gallon?

10 dollars?

25?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
When all the green technologies are in place, your electric bill will be larger than your mortage and you will gladly throw away your energy hogs in your home so you can afford to keep your lights on.

Just as how high will the breaking point be for you as far as gasoline prices go before you walk to work?

5 dollars a gallon?

10 dollars?

25?
It's not just a matter of the price. It's prolonged high prices that will actually create changes in behaviour.

I live 5 miles from my office. I might be persuaded to bike, but I'd never drive. In the past, I lived about 35 miles from my office. In those cases, even cycling wouldn't be practical.

If gas prices went up to $25 a gallon for a week, most of us would probably just suck it up for that week and pay it (while cutting out unnecessary travel and diverting money from other things to paying to get to work). If gas prices rose and stayed there, a lot of people would move closer to where they work... even if they only rose to $5 a gallon.
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
When all the green technologies are in place, your electric bill will be larger than your mortage and you will gladly throw away your energy hogs in your home so you can afford to keep your lights on.

Just as how high will the breaking point be for you as far as gasoline prices go before you walk to work?

5 dollars a gallon?

10 dollars?

25?

The world and the poor cannot afforded for Americans to live like they do.

If undeveloped countries consumed at the same rate as the US, four complete planets the size of the Earth would be required.

Consumption by the United States: Americans constitute 5% of the world's population but consume 24% of the world's energy.

The early Christians defined sin in two ways sins in two ways:

-A Sin of Omission (a failure to do what one can and must do.)

-A Sin of Commission (is to know something is wrong... and do it anyway.)

For the rich to live in a way that takes the food from the mouths of the poor should be a sin of Omission by anybodies belief system.

I know that you make an honest effort to not behave that way. Still, the government should create policies that make it easy for people to do the right thing.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
It's not just a matter of the price. It's prolonged high prices that will actually create changes in behaviour.

I live 5 miles from my office. I might be persuaded to bike, but I'd never drive. In the past, I lived about 35 miles from my office. In those cases, even cycling wouldn't be practical.

If gas prices went up to $25 a gallon for a week, most of us would probably just suck it up for that week and pay it (while cutting out unnecessary travel and diverting money from other things to paying to get to work). If gas prices rose and stayed there, a lot of people would move closer to where they work... even if they only rose to $5 a gallon.
Great post! You are exactly right, people will change their life styles if there are sustained high prices.

This green thing if it is going to work will require everyone to get on board, not just one nation or a group of followers.

I'm not really sure if people realize what the future will be like for us to be truly green. There will be alot less socialization on a broad scale and more back to the days of close friends and neighbors.

I'm not sure if folks realize that every thing we do has an impact.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
The world and the poor cannot afforded for Americans to live like they do.

If undeveloped countries consumed at the same rate as the US, four complete planets the size of the Earth would be required.

Consumption by the United States: Americans constitute 5% of the world's population but consume 24% of the world's energy.

The early Christians defined sin in two ways sins in two ways:

-A Sin of Omission (a failure to do what one can and must do.)

-A Sin of Commission (is to know something is wrong... and do it anyway.)

For the rich to live in a way that takes the food from the mouths of the poor should be a sin of Omission by anybodies belief system.

I know that you make an honest effort to not behave that way. Still, the government should create policies that make it easy for people to do the right thing.

Hold up. My husband and I work full time and pay for all we consume. We pay taxes in a high tax bracket, and we also give money pretty generously to charities. How are we taking food from the mouths of the poor?
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Poor folks in our country are over weight not starving. We may have hunger in our country not starvation. I'm hungry every night when I get home.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
When all the green technologies are in place, your electric bill will be larger than your mortage and you will gladly throw away your energy hogs in your home so you can afford to keep your lights on.

Why would my electric bill be larger than my mortgage? The only way green technologies are going to be put in place is if they can compete in price.

Just as how high will the breaking point be for you as far as gasoline prices go before you walk to work?

5 dollars a gallon?

10 dollars?

25?

I live 26 miles from work. I can't bike or walk. I could carpool or take public transportation, but either of those would be far from ideal. The first option I'd go for, if gas prices went up to $10 next year, would be to buy a car that gets 40+ miles to the gallon, rather than the 26 mine gets.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Poor folks in our country are over weight not starving. We may have hunger in our country not starvation. I'm hungry every night when I get home.

We have both hunger and starvation. It's nice of you to generalize that all poor people are overweight, though.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
The world and the poor cannot afforded for Americans to live like they do.

If undeveloped countries consumed at the same rate as the US, four complete planets the size of the Earth would be required.

Consumption by the United States: Americans constitute 5% of the world's population but consume 24% of the world's energy.
Exactly! This point that the forces on the right, along with the so called liberals, continually ignore is that there is no way for modern capitalist economics to keep growing their way out of this mess. And the fiction that has been tossed off as a fig lead from so called left to right is that the Third World can grow their way to prosperity also.

Well, let's take a closer look at what's happening first in those so called models -- China and India. If we take a closer examination, beyond the simple growth in GDP numbers, we see that the wealth has only gone to the top 5% of both nations, and the rest are not only falling behind, but finding themselves becoming poorer as a result of income inequality: rising land and housing prices. They are being forced off their land en-mass, and forced into sweatshop labour jobs that are so bleak...that one of the firms - Foxconn (the makers of your Apple products) installed nets below the dormitories housing young workers at their Shenzhen plant, to prevent the mess made when workers attempt suicide by jumping to their deaths! I can't think of anything more cynical and ironic for an epitaph of our modern age than this!

And re: your point about how the U.S. consumer-driven capitalism has made America the World's leading energy hog -- imagine all 7 billion people on the planet aspiring to the same level of resource consumption and energy use as North America! It can't be done...not even in theory, and yet the Neoliberals and supporters of slightly more constrained capitalism still do not want to face the reality that there are two stark choices facing the world today: finding a way to share necessary resources equitably, or engaging in a bloody fight for the resources that remain.

The early Christians defined sin in two ways sins in two ways:

-A Sin of Omission (a failure to do what one can and must do.)

-A Sin of Commission (is to know something is wrong... and do it anyway.)

For the rich to live in a way that takes the food from the mouths of the poor should be a sin of Omission by anybodies belief system.

I know that you make an honest effort to not behave that way. Still, the government should create policies that make it easy for people to do the right thing.
The sin of omission is usually weighed by what degree of separation there is between those squandering available food for biofuels and growing meat from already expensive corn and soybeans, and how far away and out of sight those who are starving are from us. The Christian, or any other religious claim of universal concern and values, usually falls flat as so few actually show more concern than tossing a few coins in whenever one of those annoying Worldvision commercials comes on TV.
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Hold up. My husband and I work full time and pay for all we consume. We pay taxes in a high tax bracket, and we also give money pretty generously to charities. How are we taking food from the mouths of the poor?

My comments are not aimed at anybody. It is just something to think about.

Human Resources (both energy and food) are limited supply. If every one lived like an American It would take 4 plant earths to provide the resources for us to maintain our life style. This means when the rich use too much, the poor has to make do with much less.

I see it like this, if a village had a community farm and the strong of the village, on harvest day, ran out and harvested as much as possible and left a very small amount of food for the sick and old. Then donated a small amount to feeding some of the poor in their community. That donation would not reduce the responsibility for taking most of the food.

Few facts :

-At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day.

-More than 80 percent of the world’s population lives in countries where income differentials are widening.

-The poorest 40 percent of the world’s population accounts for 5 percent of global income. The richest 20 percent accounts for three-quarters of world income.

-According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death.”

-Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn’t happen.
Poverty Facts and Stats

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24

I define the rich as anyone who makes over $10 a day. So I am really talking to myself.
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
My comments are not aimed at anybody. It is just something to think about.

Human Resources (both energy and food) are limited supply. If every one lived like an American It would take 4 plant earths to provide the resources for us to maintain our life style. This means when the rich use too much, the poor has to make do with much less.

I see it like this, if a village had a community farm and the strong of the village, on harvest day, ran out and harvested as much as possible and left a very small amount of food for the sick and old. Then donated a small amount to feeding some of the poor in their community. That donation would not reduce the responsibility for taking most of the food.

Few facts :

-At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day.

-More than 80 percent of the world’s population lives in countries where income differentials are widening.

-The poorest 40 percent of the world’s population accounts for 5 percent of global income. The richest 20 percent accounts for three-quarters of world income.

-According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death.”

-Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn’t happen.Source 8
Poverty Facts and Stats

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24

I define the rich as anyone who makes over $10 a day. So I am really talking to myself.


Well, my husband and I make much more than $10 a day. We also GIVE AWAY much more than $10 a day, to individuals, charities, etc. We also contribute to the local, and global economy via what we consume, and our tax dollars.

Sorry, but I don't see how I am taking food out of ANYONE'S mouth.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24
.I define the rich as anyone who makes over $10 a day. So I am really talking to myself.
There are days when I'm rich, & days when I'm poor. My investments are fickle.
But I'm working on the former becoming far more common & extreme than the latter, rather
than counting on a proffered paradise in an afterlife as reward for meager existence in this life.
Can't take all those Xian hadiths too seriously. I takes me my chances.
 
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Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Well, my husband and I make much more than $10 a day. We also GIVE AWAY much more than $10 a day, to individuals, charities, etc. We also contribute to the local, and global economy via what we consume, and our tax dollars.

Sorry, but I don't see how I am taking food out of ANYONE'S mouth.

I go out to dinner and spend 75 bucks. I could have had a simple meal. Thats 70 dollars I did not give to feed children. Thats $70 of food I took out of the mouth of the poor. Because of my personal desires my money was not given to the poor. I might have given $100 to the poor that day but I still live a life style of an American. I don't give all that I can. I read some place that if all those in America and Europe gave to the poor the same amount they spend on beauty products and pet food, Every child in the world could be feed and have preventive medical attention. I can tell you if my child was hungry I would not buy that new book I would feed my child. Why do I not value the life of other children over my new book. The answer is selfishness. I value my personal pleasure above the lives of others.

I know this seems very extreme, but it is true.

Maybe you give every cent to the poor. maybe your perfect, I don't know. I know I can do better.
 
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Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
There are days when I'm rich, & days when I'm poor. My investments are fickle.
But I'm working on the former becoming far more common & extreme than the latter, rather
than counting on a proffered paradise in an afterlife as reward for meager existence in this life.
Can't take all those Xian hadiths too seriously. I takes me my chances.

It is not about the teachings of the bible to me. Its about how I want to live. It is about the suffering of real people.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The world and the poor cannot afforded for Americans to live like they do.

If undeveloped countries consumed at the same rate as the US, four complete planets the size of the Earth would be required.

Consumption by the United States: Americans constitute 5% of the world's population but consume 24% of the world's energy.

The early Christians defined sin in two ways sins in two ways:

-A Sin of Omission (a failure to do what one can and must do.)

-A Sin of Commission (is to know something is wrong... and do it anyway.)

For the rich to live in a way that takes the food from the mouths of the poor should be a sin of Omission by anybodies belief system.

I know that you make an honest effort to not behave that way. Still, the government should create policies that make it easy for people to do the right thing.

My comments are not aimed at anybody. It is just something to think about.

Human Resources (both energy and food) are limited supply. If every one lived like an American It would take 4 plant earths to provide the resources for us to maintain our life style. This means when the rich use too much, the poor has to make do with much less.

I see it like this, if a village had a community farm and the strong of the village, on harvest day, ran out and harvested as much as possible and left a very small amount of food for the sick and old. Then donated a small amount to feeding some of the poor in their community. That donation would not reduce the responsibility for taking most of the food.

Few facts :

-At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day.

-More than 80 percent of the world’s population lives in countries where income differentials are widening.

-The poorest 40 percent of the world’s population accounts for 5 percent of global income. The richest 20 percent accounts for three-quarters of world income.

-According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death.”

-Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn’t happen.
Poverty Facts and Stats

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24

I define the rich as anyone who makes over $10 a day. So I am really talking to myself.
In general, I think there should be an emphasis both on consuming less, and on consuming smarter. For example, with the right technologies and practices, relatively comfortable standards of living can be obtained with reduced waste and energy compared to average American consumption.

For the most part, I agree that errors of omission and commission are similar.

If, for example, a person went to a fine restaurant, and a another person was starving to death right in front of it, but the first person just walked in and ate the food and enjoyed their self, then most people would consider this person to be rather unethical.

If, on the other hand, the first person had direct knowledge that there were people starving, and that they could alleviate some of that starving, but decided to use some of that money instead to go to a fine restaurant, then most people wouldn't think anything negative of this.

Some people might propose that trying to help problems can sometimes make problems worse.

It ends up being almost purely a matter of geography and distance. We're funny, finite creatures, and suffering is an infinite sink of energy and attention. I don't think the human mind developed in such a way to correctly process the amount of suffering that exists, because if it did, madness might occur. Every happy or carefree moment in a person's life would be replaced with tireless work and sadness if people perceived those in grinding poverty, or those in substantial suffering, as they perceive their own family and friends. (Since a person could never be happy if, say, their child or parent was currently in grinding poverty or in some other despair, and would work tirelessly to correct the situation before they could call themselves happy, or relax.) There's sort of a compartmentalization where most minds can block out 99% of what they don't see so that they can live their lives.

It can be difficult, but important, to figure out where the appropriate balance is. If everyone uses 100% of their time and resources to try to alleviate suffering, then there is burn-out. Would suffering ever be eliminated, or would an endless amount of energy be put forth to an infinite problem? But on the other hand, it can be interesting to see how any given person rationalizes spending any unit of time or resource on something other than helping those in grinding poverty or for contributing to a solution to one of the fundamental problems that face humanity, because for every dollar, they're saying that their enjoyment of a fine dinner is more important than what that dollar could be used for.

Hold up. My husband and I work full time and pay for all we consume. We pay taxes in a high tax bracket, and we also give money pretty generously to charities. How are we taking food from the mouths of the poor?
Do you replenish every drop of natural resource you consume with zero negative impact on the world?

Do any of us?

Does physical distance change your perception and interaction with people, such as in the above example?
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I go out to dinner and spend 75 bucks. I could have had a simple meal. Thats 70 dollars I did not give to feed children. Thats $70 of food I took out of the mouth of the poor. Because of my personal desires my money was not given to the poor. I might have given $100 to the poor that day but I still live a life style of an American. I don't give all that I can. I read some place that if all those in America and Europe gave to the poor the same amount they spend on beauty products and pet food, Every child in the world could be feed and have preventive medical attention. I can tell you if my child was hungry I would not buy that new book I would feed my child. Why do I not value the life of other children over my new book. The answer is selfishness. I value my personal pleasure above the lives of others.

I know this seems very extreme, but it is true.

Maybe you give every cent to the poor. maybe your perfect, I don't know. I know I can do better.

When I go out to eat, I keep other people who are supporting families employed. With their wages that they earn because they are serving me food, they feed and clothe their families. I pay taxes on that experience as well. Those go to support our infrastructure.

I'm not saying that I'm perfect in any way, or that I don't waste some money sometimes, but what I am saying is that your view of this seems to be a bit too simplistic.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
In general, I think there should be an emphasis both on consuming less, and on consuming smarter. For example, with the right technologies and practices, relatively comfortable standards of living can be obtained with reduced waste and energy compared to average American consumption.

For the most part, I agree that errors of omission and commission are similar.

If, for example, a person went to a fine restaurant, and a another person was starving to death right in front of it, but the first person just walked in and ate the food and enjoyed their self, then most people would consider this person to be rather unethical.

If, on the other hand, the first person had direct knowledge that there were people starving, and that they could alleviate some of that starving, but decided to use some of that money instead to go to a fine restaurant, then most people wouldn't think anything negative of this.

Some people might propose that trying to help problems can sometimes make problems worse.

It ends up being almost purely a matter of geography and distance. We're funny, finite creatures, and suffering is an infinite sink of energy and attention. I don't think the human mind developed in such a way to correctly process the amount of suffering that exists, because if it did, madness might occur. Every happy or carefree moment in a person's life would be replaced with tireless work and sadness if people perceived those in grinding poverty, or those in substantial suffering, as they perceive their own family and friends. (Since a person could never be happy if, say, their child or parent was currently in grinding poverty or in some other despair, and would work tirelessly to correct the situation before they could call themselves happy, or relax.) There's sort of a compartmentalization where most minds can block out 99% of what they don't see so that they can live their lives.

It can be difficult, but important, to figure out where the appropriate balance is. If everyone uses 100% of their time and resources to try to alleviate suffering, then there is burn-out. Would suffering ever be eliminated, or would an endless amount of energy be put forth to an infinite problem? But on the other hand, it can be interesting to see how any given person rationalizes spending any unit of time or resource on something other than helping those in grinding poverty or for contributing to a solution to one of the fundamental problems that face humanity, because for every dollar, they're saying that their enjoyment of a fine dinner is more important than what that dollar could be used for.


Do you replenish every drop of natural resource you consume with zero negative impact on the world?

Do any of us?

Does physical distance change your perception and interaction with people, such as in the above example?


This is why I believe in tithing and giving. Tithing is giving a set percentage of your income to charities or causes or the poor. Giving is what you give above that percentage.

We could drive ourselves crazy with trying not to waste a single penny. Every bite we take above the barest amount that we need to maintain a very sparse frame is "more than we need." Everytime we buy a soda, we could have drunk tap water instead. Heck, we don't need more than one pair of underwear - we could wash that one pair every night and sleep in the buff - on the floor, with a potato sack over us. It would be all that we "need." And we'd STILL have more than some people in this world.

We should be generous, and responsible, and aware of our "footprint" on this earth. I don't think many could fault that approach.
 
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